Technical Olds 303 in 40 ford bearing failure

I have been working on my dad's 40 coupe that he had when he was younger. It had a 49 olds 303 mated to a 39 ford box. He drove it for years this way.
I had the engine rebuilt by a local engine builder in Minnesota, and then things took a turn.
The engine was a complete rebuild. It was bored to 324, larger Chevy valves in the heads, stock regrind cam. It was professionally broken in on a Dyno and was ready to run.

After getting in the car and maybe driving it about 100 miles mostly just short trips and tuning it started running extremely poor. It sounded like one of the valves had broken was not running on all cylinders. I pulled the valve covers and found that there was no oil on the driver side valvetrain. There was a lot of dust and metal and the rockers had seized on the shaft.

I pulled the engine and called the builder. He tore into it and found that a cam bearing had spun and blocked off the oil to the head.

He replaced the cam bearing and reassembled the engine. At the time of pick I strapped the engine to my trailer and upon checking to see if it was secure, I grabbed onto the crank pulley and felt the crank move back-and-forth approximately .100.

The thrust was out of the engine. The builder thought this was due to high line pressure on an automatic however this engine was mated to a 39 ford three speed manual stock driveline.

He tore the engine down and found nothing wrong with it, replaced the rear main with the new thrust face and sent me on my way.
I reinstalled the engine making sure that there was no interference when bolting transmission to the engine I checked everything. All looked good, no interference on transmission shaft to pilot bearing face.
I drove the car approximately 50 miles and in that timeframe I believe the thrust is out again, the crank moves back-and-forth when I apply the clutch.

I have not pulled the engine again to check it out as I've been pretty disgusted. Can you guys think of anything that could've went wrong with the engine build or something I have done wrong with the assembly?

Thanks

 

I should add that it holds good oil pressure, approx 40. I did change out the stock canister oil filter at the time of build using an adapter made by OFA enterprises that uses a modern screw on filter.

 

Have your builder check the main caps for wear. Main caps like rod caps need to be resized from time to time. he may also not be setting the thrust properly, I don't know the procedure for that particular engine off the top of my head, it may be as simple as swatting the crank forward and back or it may be as complicated as measuring the clearance then moving the crank to compress the thrust bearing edge to get a predefined clearance.

hat is something that your builder needs to verify and no doubt this second time he will.

 

Maybe all that debris from running half the valve train dry is circulating and wearing the thrust bearing.
or:
The surface of the crank may be rough where the thrust rides. Drive belt pulleys are not aligned. Too much clutch pressure. Misaligned bellhousing to engine. Very out of balance rotating assembly.

 

Pull the rear main bearing cap to see if he actually used the right one with the lips on both sides.

Or if you see any evidence of it wearing the ears down.
That's really the only way the crank could move .100 back and forth.

Take some pics when you tear it down and post them here. I'm sure somebody will be able to help.

I feel your pain. Sometimes rebuilds don't work out the way we'd hoped...

 

Find a new Engine Builder He should have noticed that when he had it apart

 

Yes, unfortunately my relationship with that engine builder is over. He firmly believes it's something I am doing to the engine to cause this issue.
He assured me the crank was all perfect.
It has a ford truck 3 finger clutch and pressure plate, I made sure the fingers are not in contact with the throwout bearing in its normal position and the pilot shaft of the transmission had plenty of clearance against the bearing face of the pilot bearing so I don't believe clutch was an issue.
The builder showed me the first failed bearing that he removed, it had the faces on both sides like in the picture above. The one side had most of the thrust area peeled right off.

Inspection of my oil shows a metallic hue to it like a 60s paint job.

I will be pulling the engine out shortly and will learn more.

 

Unfortunatly it sounds like you just chose the wrong machine shop. Run on a dyno don't mean it was together correctly. Was the oil filter opened up after the dyno run? It could of and most likley was already eating itself up before you ever got it. It's always sad to hear these story's and a good machinest would never just say "Tough Shit". Seems like these stories are getting way to common, What's up with today's shops?
The Wizzard

 

I should add, You never just replace a thrust bearing after one goes completely away without checking the Crank shaft for thrust wear past spec's. That's just asking for a repeat performance.
The Wizzard

 

You might think about your adapter and if it allows the transmission input shaft to push the crank forward against the thrust bearing. I have seen some deals where I had to relive the pilot bushing a little because the splines were hitting it.

 

My old book shows .004-.008" for crankshaft end play, a long way from .100. It is one dimension that can be checked without disassembling the engine (with a dial indicator). I would suggest checking it yourself once you get the engine back and ready to install. Others have touched on it but I would also be sure everything is disassembled and cleaned completely before reassembly, metallic particles in the oil is definitely bad.
RichFox is also right, the tip of the input shaft may be bottoming out in the crank or the splines bottoming on the pilot bushing, preloading the crank. That will hurt a thrust bearing in a heartbeat.
Bummer you're having to go through all this, but check that input shaft stuff before you get too upset at the engine guy. It's up to the crank grinder to get the crank right dimensionally and up to the assembler to check the final clearance.

 

Thank you, that is good advice. when I got the engine back the second time we checked it and it was at about .008 endplay. I assembled the transmission to the engine by hand checking on clearance is between spline and bearing face. I also made sure that the front nose of the input shaft did not bottom out inside of the pilot area and there was plenty of room I did this by putting clay in there and seeing if it would squish, all was good.

 

Was this a parts house machine shop or an engine builder business? It's nice to know who the local idiots and assholes are.

 

Engine builder business, that is all this person does... Mostly bbc and sbc stuff. All in all I wasn't very happy with the experience but I don't want to slander him as I don't know if I made it fail.

 

I don't know, but it seems that if the end play was correct when you got the engine, it's something you are doing that is killing the thrust face. Is the front or rear side of the bearing the one that is failing? I can't think of any thing else that would kill the thrust bearing.

 

I haven't had it apart yet so I don't know which side it is. I sure could be doing something wrong, however the car ran for years in this configuration before the rebuild with no issues.

 

When you go again check endplay after all is bolted up! A real pain in the butt but necessary. When you get it rebuilt ask to see the crank end play adjustment, Explain your previous experience. I've done a bilzillion but only hemi's and chevys. It takes awhile if you want it correct: Eessentially you assemble the lower end and then pry or smack (dead blow hammer) the crank back and forth. This is with the mains torqued up very carefully. I do them one at a time checking torque required to turn crank each time. If for some reason the torque goes up exponentially from one main to another I stop and figure out why. At the end of it all I always get .008 to .0012 or I replace the thrust main! I use white lube!

 

Does the car have the chatter rods hooked up? This may affect the way the parts wear as the whole rear axle pushes on the transmission and engine. But I wouldn't think a couple hundred miles would wear out the thrust faces because of missing chatter rods.

And (weird question), does this car have stock taillights or some '50 Buick taillights on it? My Dad had a '40 coupe with an Olds engine when he was a kid, and wondered if it may be the same car since your Dad has had it so long. My Dad lived in Sioux City, Iowa, which is kinda near Minnesota.

 

If you don't find anything else, I would remove the starter mount/lower bellhousing and without the clutch and flywheel on, bolt the trans to it. Now try the end play while looking to see whats happening. If that works try again with the flywheel and clutch disk on. Then with everything in place. I don't know what is wrong, but it seems like it's in the bellhousing some where.

 

Alchemy, no anti-chatter rods. I have been asked that before by others but I'm having trouble understanding what the chatter rods would have to do with the transmission/engine relationship since they are bolted together?
This car had stock tail lights. It came from CA and was originally painted a heavy metallic red and the runningboards were removed with the front and rear fenders finished so it would look right without boards. The frame was painted bright red and the axles were painted white.

 

I dont think your causing it have a good machine shop fo a tear down and inspection and document findings

Sent from my DROID device using the TJJ mobile app

 

I owe you all an update. I pulled the engine from the car and got it on a stand. I found the endplay to be at .025. It was not as bad as the first failure. What I did find was a lot of bad news. The thrust faces on the crank appear to not have been polished and are still rough and scored from grinding. The thrust face was damaged and you could see displaced material. I undid the mains and rods and found a lot of poor looking bearings. Online I found a Clevite bearing diognosis file. By the looks of mine, a lot of dirt and metal has been run through this engine.
The mains and rods are at .030 under now so there may be no saving the crank.
I'll try and attach pics.

 

Pic number one; is that a diagonal grind mark(s) across the rear thrust surface?


how about one more pic? of the back of the crank, to see the pilot bushing adapter. I'd like to see how far it extends. I know you said you did the clay squish, but...

 

The first pic is a picture of the thrust surface at the rear of the crank.

Here is a pic of the pilot adapter.

 

My eyes are not so good.

And I have been fooled by distorted "color" on pics that "seem" to show rust stains, but don't in person.

I don't see a bronze or Oilite bushing insert in the adapter. The hole looks huge from where I am.

Is that a color illusion, or is that red/brown "rust powder"?

The adapter "maybe" seems a bit long for "Ford trans to Olds", but the large diameter of the end "ring" edge, would not be able to push on the input trans shaft. (because it should be bigger ID than the OD of the trans shaft, if the bushing is not in it).

If it was way too long, and touched the disc, you'd think it would make the trans grind, going into first or reverse. (because the disc would be sticking to the crank, sort of, and not stopping completely)

I'm just exploring ideas here, before some bashing starts.

 

The picture did not show the Ford style ball bearing pilot in the adapter.
The brown stuff was some semi-tacky gasket sealant I used to hold the pilot bearing in place while assembling.

 

Got it. Never saw the ball bearing type before. And I did find an old pic of my 303 bushing adapter in a 303/40 Ford swap. Your length does not look too long, like I thought.


So back to the grind marks on the thrust





-motor really should be torn down to clean every passage , even though back when the Olds car was new under warranty, GM would have cheated. IMO

-cranks are not rare, so I'd find an uncut one to send out (to perhaps a different shop) lol

 

I went back through the entire thread. Can't be interference with the pilot bearing, as the car worked for years with the same pilot adapter/trans/trans plate adapter, and same crank.

but....the first thing that went wrong was "a spun cam bearing". Someone explain how that is even possible? Even if a cam bearing was not getting pressure, it should be getting blasted by oil off the crank spinning.

Is it more likely the cam bearing oil holes were not aligned, and the oil passage to the head/ rockers was blocked right from the rebuild?

I honestly forget what the Olds bearing has for holes or if it also has a oil groove, or not.

I was just wondering if the shop messed that up, or not.

 

I wondered about the cam bearing being installed incorrectly as well. These bearings have holes not grooves so if they're not orientated right, they will block off oiling. I believe that the engine guy may have been less than honest when he told me it spun and may have been trying to cover for a poorly installed bearing.
I included a pic of what a new cam bearing looks like and my grubby fingers.