Looking for your thoughts. I have five or six Y-Blocks lying around. I also have a 292 in my T-Bird and a 312 going into my 54 Coupe. This question relates to my 34 Ford. The body is stock and full fendered. I want it to look like a mid to late 50s rod. What do you think of a 324ci 56 Olds versus a 57 Ford 312 for fit, power, and cost to rebuild etc? I will be using an automatic tranny. I have a C4 behind the 312 for my 54 and it did get pricey with the adapter and all. I heard that Olds changed the back of the block some where in the 50s so all trannys are not interchangeable. Also heard the early trannys are better than the late one.
The Olds is a pretty good fit in an early Ford for its size, and is in my opinion capable of lots more power. The Y block is badly shaped for early swaps, not much lighter, and, well, look at the early magazines and count the articles on swaps--see any Olds being replaced by Y blocks?
I would say the olds is definitley more power, I just finished a customers Y-block with a 471 blower, it runs very good but a strong rinning olds with carbs would probly eat it up. --------- Injectors
I hate to...but for all out power in this case I'd have to say the Olds has an edge... ...but that wouldn't stop ME from runnin' a y-block...my favorite early V8 by a long shot! (Besides, you got two already...go for a perfect trio! )
Like Bruce says, the Olds was found in many a good ol daze hot rod. It was rare to find a Y-Block used for an engine swap. An interesting comparison is one my little brother and I got into between my Olds powered 50 Ford coupe and his Y-Block powered 54 Ford sedan. Both engines had the same displacement, virtually the same bore and stroke, similar compression, approx. the same carb venturi area (carbs were rated by venturi area instead of CFM at the time) Engine valve sizes were just about the same, ignition curves were similar, my headers were four into ones with 2" primaries dumping into an oval Dragfast collector. His were 1 3/4" four into two into one. Port sizes intake and exhaust were similar although my opinion was the Olds intake was better and the Y-Block exhaust was better. My car ran a Ford Interceptor OD trans and his ran a beefed automatic out of a 57. I think it was a C6. Both cars ran 4.27 rear gears in Spicer rear ends out of the station wagons - a bolt on for both cars and a much stronger rear end. Rear tire sizes were the same. I ran a slightly bigger Engle cam than his Engle cam. My car ran a DuCoil dual coil distributor with K-Mart (a very good coil at the time) coils and he ran a stock - recurved a touch - distributor with Mallory coil. Both cars shifted about 6 grand. My 50 coupe with Olds weighed perhaps 3200# and his 54 sedan weighed perhaps 3300#. The coupe ran away from the sedan. My coupe ran flat 14's at 100 mph and his sedan ran low 15's at 92-93 mph. Far as we were concerned, it was all about engine design and the Olds seemed to have it over the 54. Little brother and dad tinkered with the car quite a bit - as I did with mine - and the Y-Block never really got close to the Olds in the performance arena. It was a completely accidental comparison and I didn't realize how similar the cars were until I wrote an article about it many years later. Little brother was a pretty good driver as well. He could run close to the same times in my coupe as I could and was very consistent shifting the three speed. A skill that stood him well a couple of March Meets back when he bashed the guard rail and got up on the two left wheels of his Henry J at 157 mph....
The Y-Blocks hot rod history was just not very happy. In 1954, everyone was VERY excited by a brand-new Ford V8. Many of the staffers at the car mags bought new Fords, and then a couple of years later new T-Birds, and the magazines were filled with tests and soup-ups. VERY soon after, Y-block ink stopped flowing, and all of the Ford articles became engine swaps, with the Y in the "out" basket and almost anything else going in. I think Ford guaranteed failure in rodding (not that they were even interested much) by starting WAY too low on displacement and raising it too slowly, and by emphasizing engine qualities that made the thing a good chug for the family wagon but not a racer. They also I think permanently lost the concept of interchange at this time--Ford, Lincoln, and Merc engines with all sorts of little dimensional differences, leading to a continued evolution of too many unrelated engine families right on up into modern times. Hot Rod development was continually stymied by this, while Olds-Cad-Chevy and others had long term interchangeability and growth like the flathead once had. Also, several fifties V8's fit right into the space vacated by a flathead. No Ford engine ever even came close to that, alas.
i love Olds,love those big'ol cast iron hydra-matics too.they shift hard and are tough as nails. www.rodnkustom.com/rocketeers/hydramatic/index.html
what ever happened to 'a ford in a ford'? here's a pic of my y-block the other posts made a lot of sense, but my vote is on the y-block
Y-block vs Olds. Thats a tough one, as they're both good motors. I've run both of them over the years with good luck. Don't know if I agree with all the trashing of the Y-block going on above In my experience a well tuned Y could keep up with any similarly prepared sbc in a comparable weight car. Just take a gander at what Doan Spencer was doing with the Y back in the day. All that said, the Y-block is overweight and breathing is restricted by some poor head design, and would be a tough fit in the '34. On the other hand the starter position on the Olds will interfere with the steering gear unless you find one of the old adapters to swap it to the other side. And I don't think that Olds ever changed the back of the block like Cadillac did in '55. I'd probably go with the Olds, just to put a little variety into your life. In the end, run whichever one you want. Either one would make you happy.
Use a Y-block. I want there to be enough Rocket motors left at the point in the future when I can afford to build one.
Bruce, I spoke with a friend recently and asked about a 401 Nail Head that was low mileage and cheap. He said that same thing, that Olds was a better fit. Also, I was considering a Caddy and he said the same about fit and lack of speed equipment and availability of engines. So I narrowed it to the Olds and Y-Block. The history about Ford is interesting too. I am a Ford guy and I know that I have a difficult time being objective, especially when it comes to those "che......" engines. The firewall in the coupe is uncut so far and I think that the Y-Block is quite long. I really hate to have to cut it up. But it is a hot rod. Thanks for the input.
Sixcarb, Thanks for that info. The 312 that I have for the 54 coupe is bored to 317 (.030 over) and has a comparable cam to the 57 Bird. I think we figured it for about 275 HP. But the stock 56 Olds was around 230 or 240 before modifications. I guess that they have more torque and rev higher than the Ford.
Fat Hack, I have a pair of Rams Horn manifolds too. So I was thinking how good they would look in the 34. I also considered the Ford because I could make up one survival kit, (ignition parts, fuel pump, etc.) and carry it in any one of the three cars on long trips. Although at 6'4" I don't like to go too far in the T-Bird. I have to slouch down. And if I have to put the top on I get a kink in my neck. Thanks for your input.
C9, Wow, thanks for that story. It sure is interesting. I had a 55 Olds with a Weiand and 2 4s in the 34 that is my avitar. I never finished the car and sold it off in parts in the 70s when my son modelAcoupe came along. If power is what I want then the Olds sound like the logical choice. What year was your Olds and what was the displacement?
yorgatron, I have heard that the early Hydromatic trannys were 4 speed and tougher than the latter ones. What can you tell me about that? Also do you know what years fit what engines? I heard that there is a difference in the rear of the block casting much like the flathead. The engine that I have a chance at is a 56.
Jaker, I know what you are saying. I'm going to tell the whole tale now. You will all see that I came around to my senses a while back. About 3 years back when I sold two project cars, a 33 Plymouth PC coupe and a 69 Canaro convertible in order to finish the 34 Ford, I bought a TCI stage III chassis. I am ashamed to say that I was swayed to have it set up for a sbc and 700R4 tranny. I was persuaded by the fact that I could avoid cutting my perfect fire wall. At that time I was also considering a 351 Ford but it is a couple of inches longer and I looked at a 34 with one in it. The firewall had to really be modified. After endless sleepless nights, I felt so guilty about desecrating the Ford with parts from a che , I said "Put a Ford in your Ford you fool." So I sold most of my che...... parts. The rest are still for sale. Since I wanted to really make the car 50s period I looked at flatheads, expensive, no power and not a travel motor. The Y-Block seemed to be the logical choice. But then I started to think about what was used back in the day. The Olds surfaced over the Caddy and Nailhead because of size and fit. Well that is what I have been told by most everyone. Now I am even trying to sell the TCI chassis which has the TCI independent front suspension in favor of a frame with an early front end. I have a deal in the works for a nice original Ford chassis as partial payment towards the TCI. I have ridden in cars with both types of suspension and the TCI blows the original and even modern i-beam cars away for handling and stability. But I really want to keep the theme of the car consistent. So here I am. It may come down to if the Olds comes through. I came by an early 283 and the fellow with the Olds wants it for his project. He is willing to make a swap of some kind. The Olds is apart with a rebuild kit. The 283 needs to be rebuilt too. So there you have it, well, most of it. I share your feelings for the Ford. Y-Blocks have always been good to me. For that matter any Ford products.
Warbird, I was looking at a Model A last night at a cruise on Cape Cod. I have attached a picture of the 50 Olds as set up in it. The guy used Mustang steering and didn't have a problem. I have an option on a TCI frame like mine with a 34 style front end and cross steering and have heard the started scenario about the started being moved to the passenger side. I was also told that I should run an external oil filter for clearance reasons. I know of a guy who is supposed to have a lot of Olds speed equipment and conversion parts. Ill have to check that out too.
K&R If I get into Olds engines like the Y-Blocks I;ll probably have a couple laying around when you need one. I hope not, I won't have any room for the cars in the garage. At the present I have the 292 in the Bird, a 239 in the 54 Coupe, the rebuilt 57 TBird 312 for the 54, a 57 Merc 312, 3 292 truck engines and a 292 block with the crank. I just could't stand seeing some of them junked.
Jaker, I ment to give you the link to my site. There are pictures of the 312 for my 54 coupe there. I have an Offy with 3 97s for it and T-Bird valve covers too. Once I get the paint straightened out on it I'll post some more pictures on the site. I bought POR15 Ford red paint for it. When I put it on it turned out to be pink. They told me that they had mixed about 1000 cans wrong and were selling it as Hot Rod Red. They gave me a new can of it and said "Just use Scotch Brite and scuff it up. Then paint it again." Well just scuffing it up is taking hours, all those hard to paint places are harder to scuff up. http://www.bslusa.com/cars/index.htm
Jake, I'll let you know. It may be a while until it all sifts out. The body will be ready by mid summer, I hope. I also need to have the frame that I am using in place so that I don't set up the engine and tranny more than once.
[ QUOTE ] What year was your Olds and what was the displacement? [/ QUOTE ] That particular Olds was a 303" out of a 53 Olds that had been rolled in the high school parking lot - but that's another story.... Bored .125 over, displacement was 324". I also ran a 335" - bored over 324" block. Never did get into the 371's and 394's, but I sure wanted to. Looking at the pics of the Olds powered A, it looks like if a fore & aft draglink style steering is used the left side starter shouldn't be a problem. There's room for a cross-steering setup as well. Course, that's gonna require some custom built headers, but when did a little thing like that stop a serious hot rodder?
Yeah, Ford's "Intermittent Interchangability" has inspired fear, wonder and superstition among car guys for quite some time! It's nothing new, and it still happens today! I overhear car dudes telling wide-eyed Tales to other car dudes about Ford engines as if they were telling ghost stories around a campfire or something... "You cain't put them thar Cleeeeevelands in a Fordy Ford cuz they made 'em with BIG BLOCK heads that only fit in custom Boss Mustangs! I know a guy who had one of them Boss 302 cars (translation: two barrel 302 with a loud muffler!) and he done TRIED to put 460 heads on it just like how a Cleveland is done and they had ta drill new holes!" (Note: Above story contains NO factual reference, just typical drivel like you hear on cruise night or at car shows and such!!!) Anyhow, Ford DID manage to create quite a bit of confusion amongst the population with their "Engine Of The Month" tactics, and they still insist on scrapping dead horses they couldn't straighten out after a few years to rush some NEW internal combustion abortion into production...but along the way, they managed a few credible successes! The Y-block was no exception...the earliest ones were small displacement and had a few troublesome quirks, but Ford ironed most of them out by the end of their production. (Of course, if you introduce a new motor and they gain a shakey reputation early on, then they will be tainted by that stigma even if you DO work out the bugs...this is Ford's claim to fame!) Remember the 351-400M engines? They had HORRIBLE reputations due to the low quality of the earliest examples...Ford finally got the strength and cracking issues resolved, just in time to dump that engine program, as per their normal way of doing things! Anyhoo...I admire your conviction...it takes a steadfast dedication to one's goals to do something like selling off a ready-made chassis to switch to a more traditional set-up in the interest of keeping the whole project true to your decided vision...kudos to ya! Me personally...I'd run the y-block just cuz I love 'em so much, but ultimately, it's your choice. Either way will be "correct", and I've no doubt that if you continue to stay sharply focused on your plan, and keep the whole project tight to that ideal concept...then it will be damn cool no matter what! I love my Fords...certain ones, anyway...enough to work around their shortcomings...but I'm weird!
C9, Hmmm? Rolled in a school parking lot, that is a feat. The best that I could do is back into a telephone pole that got put up one night behind the spot where I parked my 53 Ford vert. I caught the edge of the continental kit on the pole and pulled it straight out when I went forward. It looked as good without the kit anyway. Then there was the door, oh well Wow, the Olds has a lot of meat to it. I had the 312 done by a fellow in Burlington, MA, Jack Lundin at Lundin Machine Company. He will probably do the Olds if I go that way. I need to get the 283 home next week and get on to the trade. The 55 324 that I had in the 60s was in a Henry J. The fellow that I got it from had just rebuilt it and then wanted a 371 J-2. So he went that route. Later he told me that the 324 went better. I attached a picture of the car. Wish I had never sold it. Of course I wouldnt go the channeled route today and I hope that I dont have to cut the firewall like I did that one. Almost 40 years have gone by and the details of the build are fuzzy now. But it did look good with the split wishbones and quarter elliptic rear springs. It also had an early Olds hydromatic and Olds rear. I dont remember where I got those from but I seem to recall that the rear was a 1950. Regarding the exhaust, anything can be made to fit and having the cool setup is worth the effort. I may be able to come up with the starter conversion anyway. At least that is what a friend of mine said. He has a friend that has lots of old Olds stuff. Of course price is a consideration. But it will all work out in the end, I'm sure of that. Thanks again for you input.
Fat Hack, Yeah, I agree. I read a lot about the Y-Block over the last couple of years. They have a lot of good design features that were carried forward to the FE engines. And I guess that most anyone can work wit the che...... engines. It takes a lot of work to get through the process with a Ford. I'll be kind, but it takes the above average to take on the challenge of something other than che...... I don't know why people complain about the size of the Ford engines. They seem to squeeze lots of big blocks of various kinds into about anything. I think it is just an excuse. But like you I love Fords too. My list of them is huge. They just have the look. Lots to think about.
[ QUOTE ] yorgatron, I have heard that the early Hydromatic trannys were 4 speed and tougher than the latter ones. What can you tell me about that? Also do you know what years fit what engines? I heard that there is a difference in the rear of the block casting much like the flathead. The engine that I have a chance at is a 56. [/ QUOTE ] look for a '49-'55 oldsmobile or '49-'54 cadillac hydro,it'll bolt right up to the '56.'52-'55 are best,they're dual-range type,meaning they have the "s" gear,which holds it in 3rd gear until you hit about 75 mph,then it goes into 4th by itself.'52-'53 olds,and '52-'54 cad have the straight pan design with short filler tube that has to be accessed throught the floorboard.'54-'55 olds has the slant pan with a conventional dipstick that comes up on the pass. side of the engine,it also allows a lower floorboard.there's lots more,but read the stuff in the link i provided above,this should be enough to get you started if you go with the olds-george
yorgatron George, Thanks again. The info is going to be very helpful. I am leaning toward the Olds at this point. If all things go right I will move in that direction. I have printed out the info and will start looking for a tranny if the engine comes through. I'll keep everyone posted. I had a 54 Holiday hardtop coupe for about two weeks. I bought it after I had an accident with the 55 Ford convert I had in high school. The Olds had brake problems. They would fade intermittently so I took it back to the car dealer. He said he'd trade me even for a 54 Chevy sedan. I foolishly agreed. The Olds was light green and white if I remember right. Tom
i have that brake fade thing too every now and then.i'll probably have to go disc on the front to get rid of it,i don't know what causes it
Regarding the fading brakes; I wondered at the time if it had something to do with the power brake system. I didn't really get into it but the booster may have been the problem. Last summer I changed my T-Bird over to Silicon brake fluid. I had to replace the wheel and master cylinders so I figured it was a good time for the change. I disconnected the booster and need to have it rebuilt as I can't mix the two fluids. Well anyway, I hardly noticed any difference in the way the car stops with the booster out of the loop. That system works with a vacuum boost of the intake manifold. The Olds would fail in city traffic all of a sudden at low speeds. The next time it would work. The used car dealer seemed bewildered by the problem and probably thought that he would sell the car to someone else rather than try to have it fixed. Maybe he already knew what it was and didn't want to spend the money.
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