Hot Rods On cutting and buffing paint...

A couple days ago I had cut and buffed the hood top for the roadster. It had some dust nibs, and a bit of orange peel that I wasn't happy with. I started with 1200 on a Roley Block, then used 1500. I have a random orbital buffer and foam pads, new for this job, in three different grades, and used some Meguires and Wizards compound, then then 3M Machine glaze. I have the micro grit sheets for a DA, but I'd used them on the wagon and really couldn't see enough difference between them, 1500 or 2000 grit after polishing our DeSoto wagon.
My shop is poorly lit, I'll be the first to admit, and I was disappointed with the job in the light of day. I'd missed a couple spots that were still "dull" from the wet sanding, and I didn't think the finish looked as glossy as it did out of the gun. (It's single stage urethane, Nason brand).
So, yesterday I set out to re-do the job. I tried the Meguires and Wizards compounds again, and even though they're both supposed to cut sanding scratches from 1200 gr paper, I couldn't get the "dull" spots polished. I finally busted out a new wool bonnet and my DeWalt buffer, and shook up an old container of 3M Super Duty compound. I followed that up with the Meguires and then, again, 3M Machine glaze.
It looks better, but not like I wanted . I don't know if I'm using the wrong compound, the foam pads just don't seem to be as aggressive as the wool bonnet on a rotary buff, if I'm using too much, or too little compound, or if I'm just never going to get the depth from this (low end) paint to look like I want.
Any real painters, or detailers, have any advice?

 

How long did the paint set before the initial buffing?
Yes you can see the difference in your pictures.
Have you considered a clear coat?

 

I cut and buff cars on a daily basis. We start with 1200, then 1500,2000,3000 and finish with 5000 especially on dark colors. The 2-5000 are all done wet and with a dual action sander. This process makes buffing very easy.

 

Depends on what I'm trying to accomplish, but I still use wool first with wizard's turbo or extra cut. Then I go white foam with finish cut and black foam with machine Glaze

 

Super Duty compound?
That old school paste with gravel in in?
3000 grit is the roughest paper we use before buffing.
Chemical cut them a polish.
Finish up with an orbital polisher.

 

See the differrence in what? LOL, the photos are both taken this morning. The paint is a week old. I don't intend to put clear on it, that was the point of not using base/clear.

 

Maybe I should use the disks. I have 'em, I just didn't use them, thinking the compound would do the cutting. I'll give it another go.

 

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/collision-repair-us/featured-products/perfect-it/

This is what I’ve use for years..for something I want really nice, I’ll stick/wet sand it flat..then it’s time to refine the scratches with the DA , a painters pad, and inter face pad, all ya wanna do is remove the previous scratch, I go 1500, to 3000 damp..after that a wool pad and compound, foam and the machine glaze, and call it good..

if it’s a black car I might go to 5000…it’s all about refining the scratch small enough that the compound can do it’s job well and quickly..less time equals less heat…leads heat equals less swirl marks…

Machine polishes job is to remove the compound scratch, leaving the flawless mirror finish we all desire

This is original paint, that was in rough shape..very presentable now

 

I only use lacquer and hand rub all of it. I do 1 job per year.

 

Waste of everything trying in poor lighting, but you can do it kinda blind if you check your progress with a bright, clear light, but should be doing that even with good lighting.

Chris

 

47 coats. All hand rubbed.

 

On restoration/ hot rod stuff, I still block the clear, stepping up grit to 3000. But on the late model stuff i do on a regular basis, I use 1500 velcro on the DA, with a spray bottle of light soapy water. Then I squeegee and go to 2000 grit velcro foam pad. More production than perfection, and it looks just fine.

 

Used some 5k paper for the first time last month.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

buffed super fast
Looked great.

 

Ok here's my process, and I'll give my theory of what's happening to your gig at the end.
I start with 1200 wrapped around a paint stick, I use a spritzer bottle with 5 or 6 drops of dish soap, I also wash down the area 1st with a clean rag and a wipe. I use the stick because the shiney "dots" are remaining peel. Once done I go to 1500 and it goes much faster, then the "WTF!" happens, the paper wants to grab if you don't use enuff water. Means you're getting closer. I finish sand with 2000, sometimes on a foam sanding block (3M or Maguiress) or a stick if it's a big $$$$ effort. Save back some used 2000. If you look close you will see the 1200/1500 scratches left behind. As said above some direct light helps, do it long enuff you'll see it thru the water I finish with a 3000 pad on a Dynabrade sander with a foam backer, lots of speed but not on self destruct. Lots of water too. The 3000 process is damned near as much about time as it is about cut. I find it eliminates the compound process. Yup. No compound. Satisfied with the result I use a wool bonnet and Meguires #3. Do about 2 sqft at a time, more as you get used to it. If you find the occasional scar, remember I said save some worn 2000? Gently cut em back with that, a little hand rub with the 3000, back to wool and #3. I finish with a foam pad and alternate between a pro orbital and regular buffer. Final hand wipe with finisher of your choice, but in 1 direction as much as possible, like front to back. More important on dark colors. Wax as desired.

Now why is it going "dull" again. My theory is the flexibility of urethane materials. Magnified, the scratches are standing up, or there's trenches sanded in, you pick. The buffer makes heat and softens the material. It "lays down" and looks ok as you go, cools off and "stands back up" showing you a sanded area...again The goal is to cut them down finer and finer and finer. The 3000 pads take the place of compound and whether you believe it or not you have WAAAY more control over that part of the process. Also, no compound means no opportunity to scar your hard work washing the grit off before you get to glaze. I hope this makes sense, some of you probably know well what I'm talking about here. Ask questions, I'll be happy to try and detail it more if needed.

 

I used to always use 3M compounds, and I always sprayed the panel with water, so when I switched to Wizards products, I still misted my panel with water. I was so pissed off, because it seemed like I couldn't get it to buff for ****! I talked to a wizard rep at the paint supply house and he asked why I was watering down my compound, and then *****ing about its performance next job i did, I sprayed a mist of water over my wool pad to prime it, then left the panel dry, that's when I had to laugh, it actually worked

 

I don't think a week is enough cure time to cut and buff...even with a catalyst in the single stage...I know production shops aren't allowed this luxury...but you are...
I always have better results several months down the road...plus we are our own worst critics
I can't believe the results I get from Detail King products...especially their polymer products for final finish
But I know nothing...just fake it as I go

 

A day or 2 is fine. What we're fkn with is refinish, not hi-temp cure production stuff. Read that as solvent heavy for purposes of getting a good job. If you wait 24 hrs, sand it the 1st stage or 2 and let it sit the remaining solvents can purge out. What you have is a harder surface to do the fine sanding which makes the job speed up a little, less time pushing paper. Or, if you're going for a closer to restored vs an ultra slick custom finish cut and buff as fast as you can get away with. What happens is the final curing over the next 72+ hrs will make some materials get a very fine peel effect, just like OEM or very close to it. I'm not talking about the usual urethane cellulite, sometimes, some materials, they net an actual orange peel effect but clean, no dirt, no sags because it's been finished 1st. The reality is those are over the top efforts reserved for certain cars. Just thought it was worth a share.

 

On my black pickup that I painted, I used a wet sand DA to do the initial cut (base/clear) at 600, then hand wet sand down to 2000. I like wool bonnets and 3M compound on a high speed machine (speed 4-5) for the first two cuts, then I switch to a Griot's garage buffer and their white micro fiber cotton pads again with 3M with detailer spray misted on the bonnet (speed 5-6). Finally I use the griot's buffer and a fresh micro fiber pad and use the griot's compound in the yellow container again with a little lube form the detailing spray (speed 2-3).

It makes a huge mess but the results are worth the clean up.

 

I’m was comparing the hood to the front of the firewall/cab area.
I agree, I think it was alittle early to buff. But of course sometimes weather and temp play a part. I’d wait another week and try again.

 

It all comes down to preference. I would rather sand more and buff less. Back in the day we would sand to 1500 and buff for days. Now we sand to 5000 and it buffs super easy. Sanding is easier to control and a lot less of a mess, so I would rather sand a lot and buff a little.

 

Thanks guys. I'll get out the foam pad for the DA and the disks and have another go at it. Should I use 2000 gr paper before the wet disks? Looking CLOSELY at it, although it's shiny, I can see sanding marks from, I'm ***uming, the 1500 paper. Which is probably why it doesn't look right yet. On the plus side, the dust nibs are gone...

 

Brian if ya da’d with 1500 and the paper loaded up you’ll see curly Q’s…also note not all 1500 is to be used with water..it has a chemical composition on it almost like a lubrication, when you get that wet it creates a sticky mess..the 3000 and 5000 thin foam pads are designed to be used with water..

1500 over the Q’s, make sure they’re out, and hit it with the 3000 if ya got it..

 

This! And have you priced 3M compound lately? It is far cheaper to buy sand paper!! The more sanding you do, the less compound you use.

 

I must be older than I think I am. Back when I was shooting lacquer and that new fangled acrylic enamel we wet sanded with 600 and then orange rubbing compound and for the really **** guys maybe some white compound before wax. End of story. I never heard of anything finer than 600. What happened?

 

The finer paper was hidden under the case of Liquid Ebony... LOL!

 

I remember Safety Clean compound in the metal gallon can..smelled like hand cleaner…guy that used it always spent more time re working, especially on those dark colors..

 

Any chance the paint had blushed in that area? It’s almost what it sounds like.

 

I do a 1000 cut, 1500, then 3000 on the DA. Wool pad with compound, liquid polish on a foam pad and had glaze.
You didn't mention what compound you use! Meguire's and Wizard have different versions. If the compound cut isn't sufficient to remove the sanding scratches, anything after that is wasted. I find thaqt a lot of the compounds today may look good when you first do them, but dull out later on, or after washing. Fillers, or oils in the formulas, I guess. I switched to Sonax Cut Max and am much happier with the results, What you see after buffing, is what you still have weeks later. Like the old compounds. I also use their Final Finish for a polish, but Meguires # 2 or 9 work just as well.

 

I remember sanding my '69 Corvette (numbers matching 427/435 4 speed, why did I sell that?) with 320 and then buffing it with 3M compound. Catalyzed acrylic enamel. Looked like gl***. Ahhh, those heady days of my youth...

 

I used to use that stuff. It worked, but you had to do it SLOWLY.