One wire alternator vs the 3 wire one

wow...alot of folks have touched on the great 1 wire versus 3 wire debate, but no one accurately told You what the hell is wrong with the battery.

awesome.

consider this. heat in ANY electrical system is a function of, or result of resistance. You mentioned a new negative side terminal and cable- there is a possibility this is the culprit. another possibility is this- if You are using the side post style terminal, overtigheening the terminal distorts the actual terminal itself and can seperated the terminal away from it's parent plate- making SHITELOADS of resistance. if it is the standard issue "cable bolts directly to the terminal" style end, that could be half the problem by itself. (it seems like no matter how good of a job You do getting the cable in the terminal, applying corrosion inhibiter and making sure it at german torque-gutantight-they ALWAYS have an issue.)

I had this old battery we pulled from an ambulance-1000 cca, 1000 on reserve. (we replaced them at time intervals. an ambulance is one of those things that needs to start every time, no matter what, all the time.) it had an interesting carechter flaw....

if it was hot outside, and the old cutlass was having a hard time starting, it would melt the negative battery terminal into a wee puddle of lead on top of the battery. why?

resistance.

the terminal can only pass so much amperage through it before it overheats and melts. in my case, a new high torque mini starter did the trick- less load to do the same (or more) work.
later on, I changed the cable out for an "o.e." style fitted end. havent so much as looked at it since.

so, tell me what Ya got in the trunk, and lets see what might help.

and Yeah. 1 wire or 20 wire, who cares. it's not charging. it needs to hit someones rebuild table, reguardless of if it is going back on, or being replaced.

 

damn, its the internet, dont take it so seriously, seriously.
its just not worth it to get that upset.

 

careful with this one- it can fry a new car's computer. don't ask me how I know that particular mistake. Older stuff will do it all day long.

 

my 85 dodge truck the internal reg. ended up being bad and was overcharging which caused the battery to get so hot it was spewing gases and liquid from the vent holes. also so hot obviously you wouldnt want to touch it. just my experience, maybe the alt is the culprit in your case.

 

? Trunk? I've got a spare tire, floor jack, bag o tools, jacket, etc.

The battery is a top post one and the posts all seem to be fine.
Battery is located in the engine compartment, on the firewall, very low on the passenger side.
Here's what the side looks like.

 

and that, friends and neighbors, is what happens when the plates touch in the case. it is what happens when a battery is dropped.

Take it back. it is about to become a real big problem.

and sorry about the whole trunk thing. I am a muscle car dork, remember?

 

Lux, are you saying someone dropped the battery and the plates inside shifted and are now touching?

Could this have caused the issue with my alternator?

 

Your alt will not do that to a battery. Something is def. wrong.

 

That does look similar to a battery that I checked out at work...someone dropped it.

I still say that not having a heat shield on the battery is also a big problem. The paint on the tray has been cooked off over the years, so it's getting plenty hot..too hot.

 

No need to out trick yourself here with all of the latest new fangled technology thats on the market
Stick with the 3 wire setup. Have your current charging system checked. If the alternator is at fault replace with another 3 wire alternator.

You might be surprised to find the Ultima Battery was or still is the problem. Go back to a standard high cold cranking amp battery

 

quit yur bitchin'

 

WRONG! good way to burn up the voltage regulator. with the car running simply touch a screwdriver to the center of the backside and it will be magnetically drawn to area if its working. bet denise's mechanic deal is part cash part COOKIES!! denise find a factory GM manual and it will show you how to rebuild your alt., a few hand tools a couple of paper clips and its rebuilt.my job in the mid 80's had me tearing down 100+ a day and mark both sides of case before starting and your good. mmm! cookies.

 

That's interesting, this is a problem I've had with my Model A for a couple of years. My 1-wire isn't charging, now I'm thinking about switching to a 3-wire.

 

a great idea. when when my alternator goes south, I'll do that

 

What the Hell is that referring to Newbie?

 

Denise, Lux makes good points about resistance(Damn, Lux, you're a pretty smart guy! ..but I knew that already)

I noticed Big Olds has some of the tiniest battery cables I've ever seen short of a lawnmower. Might think about some more cables when ya get a new battery

 

I'll second the Odyssey recommendation, no better battery available outside of NASA.

 

Some added information :

Charging an Optima or AGM Battery

After handling the Optima product for 15+ years we would like to share the following:


See our NEW line of OPTIMA recommended Chargers (Battery Accessories)

Facts:

- Batteries are designed to store electricity.
- Batteries do not make electricity.
- Batteries must be charged before any testing is accurate or effective.
- Alternators ARE NOT battery chargers!
- Seldom to batteries discharge / re-charge on their own.
- Deep Cycle batteries will take much longer to charge.
- Battery chargers need to be tested and amperage and the voltage checked manually.
- Sitting a battery on concrete does NOT discharge it!

Battery charging instructions:



* Voltage at the battery terminals when vehicle is running should Be from a minimum of 12.8 volts to < 15.0 volts
* Battery chargers should charge 13.8 ? 15.50 volts,

Never charge a battery at > than 15.6 volts.

We recommend the following charging procedure for a fully discharged 34, 34/78, 75/35, and 6v: 1) Charge the battery A MINIMUM OF 100 amps for 15 mins ( @ 14.5+ volts)
a) Let battery and charger cool for 15 mins
2) Repeat step one at least four times - after letting battery cool 15 mins after each charge
3) Charge at 2-10 amps (trickle / automatic) for 24 hours minimum
4) Test the battery
5) D31 batteries: repeat each step again

--> WE ALWAYS RECOMMEND CHARGING TWO BATTERIES AT A TIME- CONNECT THEM POSTIVE POST TO POSITIVE POST ? negative post to negative post) AND PUT THE CHARGER NEGATIVE CABLE ON ONE BATTERY AND THE POSITIVE ON THE OTHER BATTERY! (and DOUBLE CHARGING TIMES)

ALL Optima's need Charged up if they have been discharged, before testing!


We compare charging an Optima to waking a teenager up on Saturday morning, or filling an empty 55-gallon drum with water ? it?s going to take some work!

Charging 10 amps on a drained 31 series battery is like filling a 55 gallon drum with an eye dropper!
Charging 10 amps on a drained 34/78 sries battery is like filling a 55 gallon drum with a 10oz cup - it can be done; but why?

Your alternator will not (and should not be used to) charge an OPTIMA up - unless you have a 100 amp alternator and less than 100 amp draw, and charge it for A long period of time with the car running. (and this will only ruin your alternator)


Experience indicates most batteries thought to be defective may have been discharged, and just need woke up ? and recharged,

Questions to ask before having battery tested:

How many amps is the alternator charging at full output?

How many volts is the alternator charging at full output?

How many amps draw is there on the battery, when application is NOT running?
(Put an amp meter between (+) cable and the (+) post of the battery)

Always use a voltage regulated battery charger with limits set to the above ratings. Overcharging can cause the safety valves to open and battery gases to escape, causing premature end of life. These gases are flammable! You cannot replace water in sealed batteries that have been overcharged. Any battery that becomes very hot while charging should be disconnected immediately. If the safety valaves have popped, warranty is void!
Thank you,
Technical assistance
______________________________
Website: www.BATTERIESareUS.com
Email: tech@BATTERIESareUS.com
______________________________
We suggest you print this out and share it with others!

 

Hi Denise, after reading Bubba's description of charging Optima batteries, why would anyone want one.(big pain in the butt).
That big swell on the side of the battery, (if I see it Correctly) is bad news.
Can you borrow a good battery(wet cell, I like Interstate) and install it?
Using a good multi meter, check the standing voltage, Close to 12 Volts, then start it up.
If your getting something up to 14.4 Volts, then I would say your charging system is ok, greater, than the alternator is a problem.
Shut the engine off, disconnect coil wire, (so as not to start engine), crank it for 5 seconds measuring voltage at starter. If it maintains 9 volts or better than all is ok.
I have seen batteries swell from over voltage, so if your is putting out more than 14.4 than it may be the fault of the Alternator. The heat could also be from an internal battery problem.
All the Best to you...

 

I think the battery damaged the alternator...IF the alternator is really only doing 12.6

If that battery is shorting internally, the volts will not go up to normal 13.5 to 14.2...because...it's shorting...trading off amperage/volts for HEAT.

If you take a junk old batt with warped plates, you will get a low V reading while trying to charge it...even if you jump started the car and then see what that cars alt is putting out, the alt won't be up to specs, trying to overcome that short.

I don't recall if the Optima Rep saw that hot spot? If he did, and let you walk away without making sure what the real problem was...he should be canned. Seriously. Sounds harsh, but safety issues..fire..etc, PLUS the economy likely has lots of good tech persons looking for work.
It doesn't mattter if it was dropped, or factory fault, or something the car owner did...they should have advised you to stop running the car.

 

After nothing but trouble with my Optima battery in my dually GMC I took it back to the battery outlet store for a warranty exchange. The guy behind the counter whispered to his co-worker, "another junk Optima battery". Hearing that, I exchanged it for a traditional lead acid battery and have had no problems since then. That was 2 years ago.

 

You know this has been a pretty good discussion , however after reading the entire thing for a day or two , heres what i think should have happened.

She took the car to the Optima people at Goodguys Columbus for a look.
They did something and blamed the alternator. Maybe the alternator is over charging etc ( she hasnt said what they said)
I dont know why the Optima folks wouldnt have just installed another battery at the show and told her to get the alternator repaired right away. ???
To me that would have been the correct fix for the time????

 

I wonder how they tested the system at the show? Normally, a simple voltage reading is fine if you are just checking out a car during yearly checkups. If a car has some sort of starting problem, an amps test should be done. Amps test is normally done by taking off the battery terminal and installing the test gauge in-line. It has a lever that allows max amps to flow during starting, then flip the switch to see how much amperage is actually going into the battery.

If the batt was shorting internally, the volts would be lower than spec, but amps would be insanely high. If the condition goes long enough, the alt will overheat and fail. Caught in time, the alt could still be fine.

 

I agree Bubba, has been good and from what Denise said, she was talking to a marketing rep.

 

After explaining to the Optima guy at the GG Columbus event that my battery was hot to the touch and melted on the side he asked me to drive my caar over to his vendor booth. Once there I popped the hood and he hooked up this hand held device to the battery, took some readings then asked me to start the car. After I shut off the car the hand held machine spit out a foot long piece of paper with a bunch of readings on it.

The first results was for the battery
voltage : 12.88v
measured: 935 CCA
rated: 720 CCA
temperature: 104*F

the next "test" reads for the starter
voltage: 12.28V
Time: 4.73S

Charging system test
no load: 12.63V
loaded: 12.63V


and yes, afer quite a bit of discussion he let me drive away knowing I was driving back to Michigan with that 30 days old battery with the melted side.

The shop down the street opens at 7:30 tomorrow morning. I'm going to take Bubba's advice see if they can test my charging system for me and advise me where to start. I don't know if I trust the Optima guys test.

 

up, I would not trust them either...

 

quote:

Charging system test
no load: 12.63V
loaded: 12.63V end quote.

There is no amps reading, just volts.

There needs to be an amps test if that battery is heating up. A LOW 12.6v might lead some to believe the alt is dead. So, if the technician thinks the alt is not producing enough current, then where is the heat coming from in the batt??....and then how can the car keep starting and running, if the alt is dead?

If it were my car and did not own the amps tester; I'd swap in a known good batt, then do the volt test again. If the "new" batt now shows a normal 14ish volts running for a few minutes, then one can assume the old batt is shorted.

Of course, if the alternator does have a problem now after running this long with a "possible" shorted batt, you really can't prove that the battery caused it, or if the alternator cooked the batt.

I would not re-use that batt; it is unsafe at this point.

 

a new 3 wire can be had for $30 in any farm town with a gas station, hell you can take them off of a combine. I have several people discarded for the "superior" one wire. Suits my budget fine.

Exide batteries are made in AMERICA. Optima can't make that claim anymore.

 

wow 100 volts, were there any light bulbs left still working...lol

 

Hey Denise- Exide batteries are made right here in Salina Kansas USofA. If you want a facility tour when you are here later this week- let me know and I can make some calls.