I have a '63 Pontiac Star Chief. I recently changed the ball joints and tie rod ends. It has had oversteer ever since. I took it to a front end shop for an alignment but it's still there. You can never quite relax. It didn't do it before I changed out the front end. There is also noticeably more resistance in the steering. Typically when exiting a turn a steering wheel will return to center on it's own. Not anymore. I have to turn mine back now. What's up?
What you're describing isn't oversteer; it sounds more like lack of self-centering, not the same thing. It could be a lot of things, but self-centering is generally a function of scrub radius, steering axis inclination, and/or caster. Could you have old front-end damage that was masked by ball-joint wear? Did the front end shop give you a printout of the front end geometry? It should have. It does sound as if there is some unwarranted friction there too. Power steering?
I believe you are exactly right about the self centering. There could have been old damage that I didn't know about. I did not get a print out They just said it looked OK. I took it to a second shop. I didn't get anything from them either. They too just said it looks OK. I noticed that the new tie rod ends move pretty stiff. Yoe it has power steering. I believe you are exactly right about the self centering. There could have been old damage that I didn't know about. I did not get a print out They just said it looked OK. I took it to a second shop. I didn't get anything from them either. They too just said it looks OK. I noticed that the new tie rod ends move pretty stiff. Yes it has power steering.
Excessive toe-out. Causes oversteer at speed, car never tracks, Old skool car needs an old school alignment shop. I was gonna post a link to one in Pontiac, but I don't know where you are and if HAMB would frown on it.
No. The tires were brand new just before the rebuild. The car steered fine. The steering was just a little sloppy from 100,000 miles of wear.
Just to be clear--- when I hear "oversteer" it means to me that the front tires grip into turns and the tail end slides out (fishtails). Is that what you're experiencing?
Nothing that dramatic. Very small movements of the steering wheel seem to result in a disproportionate change of direction. I have to be continually steering the car to go straight.
Caster issue. To solve it and like others have said, find an old school type shop or a quote "tech" that understands all the dynamic's of an alignment. Most often today modern shop's all they do is a toe adjustment and out the door they send you. Think of caster as the forks on a bicycle. This is how your spindle should be set (but not to that extreme of an angle) to give you a visual.
Frontend shops nowdays are hit an miss,many hack shops when it comes to older cars there not really set up for,an the guys can talk a line but don't actully know. From what you said so far,sound like its possible when taking things apart an replacing. Thats a combo of wrong tow an caster? ,likely plus out of center with steering box. Find a old school shop that really dose know how to check it out.
63 Pontiac upper ball joints are different right to left, they have three bolts in an uneven triangle pattern , if they are fitted incorrectly , either wrong side or rotated to incorrect holes on the correct side the caster and/or camber will be affected and make proper alignment practically impossible... they are designed to only fit one way but I have seen them incorrectly fitted side to side and also rotated.
If you didn´t have enough caster , like 4-6°,your car would be hardly driveable, and with negative caster your front wheels would wiggle like shopping cart wheels. That is not your porblem. My guess is also, like already said above,that you have excessive "toe out". You can fix that yourself.Get your car on a level, flat and smooth surface, a wet, smooth concrete floor or maybe a piece of sheetmetal under the front tires will be ok. It makes it easier to adjust the tires, without too much binding. Now measure the distance between the two front wheels at the very rear of each wheel , from the center of the passenger side tread to the center of the tread on the driver side of the car. Write it down . Then do the same at the front of the front wheels. Write it done. Substract the measurement from the front of you wheels( should be the smaller figure) from the one from the rear , and what you should get is about an 1/8th " toe in. I think you will be getting maybe -1/4" or more. Adjust the tierods until you get 1/8" toe in at the very front of your tires, that should be enough to get your tires self aligning. I did all of my cars this way,because it is impossible to find a shop around here that can handle a non McPherson -Style frontend. If your car is very low, use a piece if lead on a string ( don´t know what the right name for this is/ level??) and make a mark on the floor, it´s easier to do that way, there maybe a oilpan or frame in the way to get a good straight line between both front tires.... I hope that helps!
No one will frown on it, everyone is always looking for a shop that works on our kind of stuff. I had a fella show up one day with a beam axle pickup. He said it was squirrely. You bet it was they had it toed out about 1/4. We adjusted it in my driveway with a piece of chalk and a tape measure. Modern technicians normally just don't know. Back to the question at hand. Other than cars that have had the tie rod moved to the front and have the Ackerman all jacked up boat steering is normally caused by bad castor/camber adjustment. if your front end was sloppy and you replaced the ball joints that is going to set your spindles in a different inclination, maybe better said can. if it feels stiff it is because it is no longer sloppy. I would be sure to grease the hell out of things and go on with life on the stiffness. For your alignment if you don't have a shop that shows the older alignment specs take them in with you. Chances are that you may be able to find them on line and print it out. it does not need to be aligned on an old machine just to original specs.
ANY alignment shop should be able to do the job - but they will need the proper specs. Most likely they won't have them handy and that's why both said "It looks OK" - they didn't know What to look for Your car, factory specs Caster 1 1/2° neg +/- 1/2 ° Camber 1/4° negative +/- 1/2° (Split left side to 1/4° More than Right side) Toe 0 to 1/8" IN Steering Axis Inclination 4° 50' Hand the tech those specs and have i properly aligned. If the upper ball joints are swapped left to right, they won't be able to get to these specs and will need to swap them.
It is partly. OP's steering wheel no longer return's also and that is largely why I posted what I did. You are correct about to much toe out. This will cause the wonder's and when the furthest wheel outside of the steering curve comes into it it will suddenly dart into that direction making for a constant fight at the wheel.
Don, I´m not an engineer or Pontiac expert, so how is that going to work? I have always read that 4-6° is what you want to have... maybe the ball joints are offset?
4 to 6 degrees positive caster works pretty well on a solid axle. This car does not have a solid axle.
This was very common on 1960's American cars with independent suspensions. Many Ford's were 0° to 1/2° negative, same for AMC. GM cars were similar to what I posted for the Pontiac, with the exception being trucks and Corvettes which ran Positive 1 3/4 to 2° or so. Offset ball joints would be accounted for - that is just another way to get the caster, but the end measurement is the same.
Having done alot of alignments in the late 60's - early70's , there were many of the big GM cars that spec'd positive caster , sometimes getting those big boats to go down the road straight req'd multiple adjustments ... dave
The OP didn't say if he was running the original Bias Ply type tires, or modern Radials. IF he is running radials, I would then start increasing the Caster to Positive, you probably will only get about 2 ° max with stock parts, but that will help with wandering, return to cetner and rain groove tracking with Radials.
Double check the tie rod placement end to end . similar problem on my brothers 62 Impala after complete rebuild. He assemble the tie rod assemblies on the bench and flipped them ass backwards when he installed. would not have noticed if we did not double check a 4dr parts car we have. turned them around and it handels great. worth a look see anyhow. Larry
I'm running radials. Keep in mind guys, this car handled fine until I rebuilt the front end. So the theory about something being installed improperly seems to make sense to me. It seems like the geometry has changed.
Jim, I know you guys are right about the caster. I wonder why IFS cars need way less caster then solid axle cars? You guys can explain that to a dummy? Edit: Thanks Don, now I can see what you mean. I just checked my 61 Chevy shop manual and it also states 0° +/- 1/2°... maybe this also has something to do with the anti dive frontend geometry... just trying to learn
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