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Technical Oversteer

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Motoguy, Jun 23, 2016.

  1. Well, unless you indicate that you adjusted the toe-in after replacing those tie-rods - then that toe-in would be the most likely culprit.

    * tie-rod ends don't know what length they're supposed to be - you un-thread the old, then thread new ones in and stop when they "look good". No way to get that right without some careful measuring.

    * Ball joints - those uppers are unequal-sided triangle bolt pattern - lefty set into the right side - holes won't line up and visey versey - and we sure woulda heard you cussin' clear over here.

    Right? Right.
     
  2. hotroddon
    Joined: Sep 22, 2007
    Posts: 28,240

    hotroddon
    Member

    Honestly I think a lot of it had to do with the times and the engineering. Bias Plies do not like a lot of caster I think mainly due to the long skinny contact patch compared to radials. The thinking of the day also had to do with making steering easy (remember many of these cars did not have power steering) and to try and make them "safer" - small caster, positive camber make for more of an understeering car which will cause Joe Average to slow down. On top of that the engineered camber and caster curves were very different then they are today which causes the dynamic alignment to move differently.
     
  3. Motoguy
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 71

    Motoguy
    Member
    from Michigan

    I measured the length of the old tie rods and made the new ones the same.
     
  4. hotroddon
    Joined: Sep 22, 2007
    Posts: 28,240

    hotroddon
    Member

    If I remember correctly from my days of doing front end work in the 1970's, (man that was a long time ago) I think you can install them wrong by rotating them until the three holes line up, but it throws the offset right out the window!
     
  5. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,618

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    Best front end shop I ever worked for was Concord Safety Center. Bill Westbury was the owner, and we set MOST independent fronts at 2* positive caster, which made road tests ideal.
    Older GM cars (mid '50s thru the '60s) would sag from front cross member stress. We would apply a pair of tapered shafts in the upper shock bores, chain down to the cross truss of the front end rack, (both sides) and jack the center, bending the cross member straight again.
    I got pretty good at it, would sometimes bet the owner's son I could pull one to proper camber spec in 2 ops.
    Caster would have to be adjusted, but I always got the camber within 1/4*.
    Mid '60s Chevys drove great with 2 degrees positive caster. Bill definitely had done his homework.
     
  6. Bluntly, you got within mebbe 1/4".
    NOBODY is that fkn lucky to nail the 0 to 1/8" toe-in like that.

    Just get a real alignment - a real shop would tell you to the enth how far out you were.
     
  7. LOL I know you are absolutely correct about toe after tie rod end change. I did do the tie rod ends on the Pusher (my old C-10)and measured center to center. Took it to a friends front end machine, nailed it. I always knew that being NOBODY would pay off someday. :D :D :D

    Basically measuring and installing is just to get you close enough to drive to the front end machine. ;)
     
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  8. Motoguy
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 71

    Motoguy
    Member
    from Michigan

    It's going to a front end shop. The question is: where?
     
  9. If you were here I would say take it to the GM garage, even if it was a Ford although it is not. Locally I have noticed that the bigger GM dealers seem to pull the most qualified technicians. That may not be the case where you are. The Chevy garage that I take the missus late mode to for example, has excellent well trained techs and they have a consultant for older cars on call.

    Maybe where you are the Ford dealerships are better. One thing that you can be assured of is that at a larger dealership the guy on the front end machine is a front end guy not a tire changer and floor sweeper and oil changer and etc.

    I looked up numbers here and the numbers that @hotroddon are correct if there was ever any doubt. Take those numbers exactly as he gave them to you. A well trained front end tech can hit them right on and you should be in good shape.
     
    C. John Stutzer likes this.
  10. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 59,384

    squirrel
    Member

    ask around guys who live near you, who have old cars, who does good alignment work. Sometimes you have to follow a good mechanic, when he moves from one shop to another!
     
    C. John Stutzer likes this.
  11. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 5,809

    bchctybob
    Member

    Caster and Toe-in. Screwed up toe-in will make it wander and screwed up caster won't let it return to center.
    Like Squirrel said, ask some local car guys or just look for a shop that has been around for eons. When I moved to NorCal I lucked out and found an old shop that had been around since the 40s. The old owner sold it to his long time employee. The guy was very knowledgeable and was willing to work with me trying different settings until we got my truck to drive the way I like it. This was after I got the same lame answers you got from several places.
    It helps to do a little homework on front ends so you can talk intelligently with the guys, there's lots of info out there. Unfortunately these days most shops are like auto parts stores - if it ain't in the computer they are stumped. They have little understanding of what needs to be done beyond what the computer tells them.
     
    C. John Stutzer likes this.
  12. Well, you haven't said where you are.

    In Pontiac:

    Clyde's Frame & Wheel
    https://www.demandforce.com/b/120001625

    They used to say "We've been doing classic cars since before they were Classics"

    Now it's:
    "Four generations of people and products that steer you strait. No truck or trailer too big, no car to small. Vintage or custom, we service them all"

    An outfit like that is what you are looking for in your area, or at least, that's what I'd keep my eye out for.
     
  13. I'm never lucky.:(
     
  14. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 14,109

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    As told to me once. Negative caster in that era of vehicle was common place. It helped make steering more easy. Even if it did have power steering. And let me tell ya. Some of those cars with power steering felt like the steering shaft was uncoupled from the steering box.
     
  15. frosty-49
    Joined: Oct 13, 2014
    Posts: 118

    frosty-49
    Member

    Wish you lived in Md. I would that. You need a real alignment.
     
  16. Motoguy
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 71

    Motoguy
    Member
    from Michigan

    So I took the car to a shop that's been around here for many years. It was recommended by some of the car guys I know. He put it on the machine and said it really wasn't too bad. I got a printout back after he was done. He set it up with a little more toe in and changed the caster a little. The car drives a little better. But I'm still fighting it a bit. He blames the new parts for what's going on. He says there is too much friction in the front end and that it is being caused by the new ball joints and tie rod ends. Which he says are very tight. He says that eventually it will loosen up and drive better.
     
  17. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 14,109

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    ^^^^^ Getting there. Not to sure about the "He blames new parts" story.
     
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  18. Motoguy
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 71

    Motoguy
    Member
    from Michigan

    He claims he has seen this before with new parts being sold today.
     
  19. And you swear on a stack of old Hot Rod magazines you didn't fiddle with this this twisty thing? 1963 pontiac steering gearbox-1.jpg
     
  20. Motoguy
    Joined: Mar 31, 2010
    Posts: 71

    Motoguy
    Member
    from Michigan

    I did not. However...after I changed out the front end components, and the car didn't handle properly, I took it to the local GM dealer. He checked the alignment AND he said he adjusted the steering gear box. The car didn't handle any differently when I got it back from them.
     
  21. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 14,109

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    Not to entirely discredit your resent alignment and forgive me if this has been asked or mentioned before. How is your drag link and pitman arm ? I ask because any wear or minor looseness in them can affect toe. It can be really funny to. When setting toe as it most often it is an the rack there is no real stress placed on the tie rods, drag link, pitman arm and steering box. Now if one was to, as I do, roll the car back 25 feet then roll it forward 25 feet then check the toe. You'd be surprise what a change in measurements that can be.
     
    C. John Stutzer and Baumi like this.

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