Hot Rods Packard V-12 in Hotrods?

Unclee, are you saying that even the LATER Lincoln V-12s were still twitchy? I'd read that the company watch much happier with the improvements, after the war. Help me here, buddy.

 

Gotham, I realy thought Ford made an AWFUL mistake not adopting the Jag V-12 !!! I can't say thta enough. The Jag six and twelve were IGNATURES of the Brit brand. When Ford "Americanized" the Jag, I just said, "OH, SHIT!"

 

One thing has me a bit baffled about the Marmon street rod. The owner goes into great detail about the starting procedure, how it needs to be pre oiled because the OHC setup runs dry if the car sits for too long, etc., etc. The V-16 Marmons are OHV engines, not OHC. I wonder what the pre oil thing is all about? I can see being as careful as possible since, I'll wager, he has Indy Car money tied up in that engine.

 

Yeah, John (Karl le'Fong -- Kiek in de Kok), you made some good points worth input from other knowledgeable HAMBers.

Sure, rodding a multi-cyl early engine is both interestig AND complex. But lots of people, early on, couldn't touch the motors or find parts to work with. The gys who ventured into doing times at the dry lakes obviously used a ton of home-grown ENGENUITY.

This turned out to be a way more amazing thread than I ever imagined when I asked what I thought ere pretty simple questions about the Pack-V-12. WOW!

 

I have owned and driven a number of Packard 12s (and Twin Sixes) and never really thought of any of the Packard 12s from the thirties as being a good candidate for hot rods. The best driving car I owned was my 37 Packard 12 Rumble Seat Coupe but as the others have pointed out, they were big and heavy engines. I believe they were much better suited to powering luxury cars and not hot rods. Macauley's Speedster was probably one of the best looking cars built. Sad it is no longer around for us to enjoy,

The early 12s called Twin Sixes from the teens may have lent themselves more to being hot rodded. When this 12 was designed in 1914 and built in 1915, the chief Packard engineer, Jesse Vincent was a true racer and gearhead. He put most of his racing efforts into boats but at Indy in 1915 he was the crew chief for Ralph DePalma in his winning effort with his newly acquired 1914 GP Mercedes. The car was rebuilt for the race in the Packard experimental department (both rebodied and installed a Packard Carb for the race).

Shortly after this, Vincent set out to building a series of racers, ultimate hot rods I suppose. He installed one of his hot rodded Twin Sixes in a crude bodied stock chassis and called it Typhoon. It had some better pistons and camshaft and increased compression and advanced timing. They went on to build some Packard racers. Based on conversations with my grandfather, who worked in the experimental department on engine development, during this era, I had sought to find any of the racers from this era. I was told by "experts" for years that no such racers existed that carried Twin Six engines. Then in 2000 I was contacted by a collector who had bought a couple of Marmon racers in South America (his wife was a descendant of the Marmon family) and they found a Packard racer in the jungle of Paraguay. As soon as it was brought to this country I was contacted to help identify and document this Packard racer and it turned out to be one of the Twin Six racers from 1915 (it is called a 1916 but I believe it to be a 1915). Packard intended to go racing at Indy and in the AAA circuit to showcase the introduction of their new Twin Six but the first World War broke out and shelved that idea. Plus they were hard at work attempting to develop an aero engine to go fight the Kaiser. They did develop the Liberty (along with Cadillac) and the #1 prototype they built was not so coincidently 299 cubic inches. The racing limitation at Indy and in the AAA was 300. They built 2 299 cubic inch engines (I own engine #1)and even during the war when the racing schedules were quite thin, they raced it with a measure of success, setting numerous track and world's records. Upon the resumation of racing after the war, they raced it at Indy (1919-leading the first half of the race until a frozen wheel bearing relegated them to 6th place). They also built 2 larger Liberty engines for racing purposes (905 cubic inch) and they raced these to some world records and the land speed record of 1919 at Daytona Beach. The actual aero engines displaced 1650 cubic inch and they were abundant after the war and were used extensively in hot rod boats and in record setting cars.

Babs carried a Packard Libery and the Triplex carried three 1650 Liberty twelves. To this day the Liberty 12s are hot rodded in boats. If you ever hear one run you will never forget the noise they make.

As to Enzo Ferrari and his 12s and where he got his inspiration, I do not believe it was from the Packard Twelves of the thirties but rather from the 299 OHC Twelve that raced during the teens in this country and the second 299 engine (engine #2) that raced in Europe starting in 1920. Ferrari was driving an Alfa at Gallarate (not far from Millano) and raced against the Packard 299 in November of 1920. Silvani in the loud 12 blew away all comers at 157.894kph average. The closest competitor averaged around 130kph. This is detailed in the Ferrari publication, "Cavallino" Issue 149 Oct Nov 2005 in an article I assisted Alfa Romeo expert and author,Simon Moore. I also helped in the translation of a similar piece written in Italian by the author Valerio Moretti on the same topic for the Society of Automotive Historians.

This 299 12 was reported by DePalma's nephew Pete DePaolo as the loudest car on the track in 1919 and that is not hard to believe. Liberty engines are notorious for being extremely loud and I can attest to that in both the 1650 and 299 configurations. I am sure that this was more than likely the loudest car Ferrari had heard and the sound of the twelve cylinders is second to none.

The legacy of Packard's attempt to build a few racers may have cast a pretty decent shadow. They set numerous track and worlds records. They built the only 12 cylinder to ever finish the race at Indy and they were the first AAA racer to ever lap the Indianapolis Motor Speedway at over 100mph.

The more you research the engineers at Packard back in the teens the more you may come to the conclusion that they were just a bunch of hot rodders. Vincent the chief engineer won several Gold Cup titles with his Packard powered race boats. Whether it was on land or water he liked crafts that went fast.

Although I cannot find the picture right now, one of the earliest true hot rods I have run across was a Packard racer that had cycle fenders added and was built for Jesse Lasky in Hollywood. He joined with a couple of guys named Samuel Goldwyn and Cecil DeMille to make the first feature in Hollywood. I believe this hot rod may have been the first body for the 905 record racer (a two seater and then the second body that set the Land Speed record was a single seater). Vincent in his diary detailed his selling of the 905 for $10,000 in 1921 I believe. During this era I can only imagine that the guys in the experimental department may have fitted one of their twin sixes but that is strictly a guess. I am one of those guys that believe Packard built a few hot rods. Too bad that more were not preserved.-Jim

typhoon


Packard Twin Six racer as it looked in 2001 with me behind the wheel right after being delivered back to the US


The owner and I at speed after the cars restoration


the engine of the Twin Six racer


The 299 OHC Liberty 12 racer as it looked in 1917 with Ralph DePalma behind the wheel


The 299 on the scales at Indy in 1919 with the new body for the race


The 299 engine #1 in my shop


The 905 record car at Earle Anthony's California showroom with the two man body


The 905 on the beach at Daytona in 1919


Babs with a 1650 cubic inch 12 Packard Liberty


Triplex-land speed racer with three 1650 Packard Liberty 12s

 

Great info Jim....thanks

CC

 

You nailed it Jim. Packard performance was different than what we normally think of but no less significant. Jesse Vincent was indeed a gearhead!

As far as poor oiling on Packard 12s...huh? Not poor or a bad design, just not suited to high RPMs. And again heavy. Also the link to the Brown Bomber has a 1944 version. This is wrong. That was a later incarnation of Macauleys Darrin Cpe DeVille with the Lexan top built by Hess and Eisenhart. It was a design study for the start of the 41 Darrins built by the same firm and used as a test bed much like the speedster. The 1st design of the cpe DeVille was nice. I agree it went south from there and spawned the "bathtub" era.

 

Jim Dillon wrote: "The more you research the engineers at Packard back in the teens the more you may come to the conclusion that they were just a bunch of hot rodders."

That is a strong statement, Jim, OBVIOUSLY borne out by all the RICH facts you present! GREAT material, man!!! IT IS GREAT THAT SOMEONE WITH YOUR DEPTH OF PACKARD KNOWLEDGE IS AROUND, SO THAT THE WEALTH OF FABULOUS DETAILS ISN'T LOST TO THE USUAL GENERALIZATION. In particular, my eyes were surely opened when you reveal that the twin-six of the '30s is/was a very, very DIFFERENT cat from the ones built in the teens and '20s!!! Puts the Packard 12 in quite a different light here!

I have to say that these last three posts just blow me away.

Now, do I understand that MacCauley's Brown Bomber and various racers were NOT preserved? Meaning, EXTINCT, zip, no survivors?

 

Highlander wrote: "As far as poor oiling on Packard 12s...huh? Not poor or a bad design, just not suited to high RPMs."

So, here again, NOT suited to hotrodding.

 

They can work. You have to do a lot of work to make them look good. It can be done though and if done well they are all right. They never look too impressive though if only due to the wimpy cam covers that are too narrow for the mass of the engine. This is usually covered up with the induction system. If you mount the alternator in the top of the vee with no other accessories the overall package is very tidy. These motors are bulletproof, too.

 

Plym, "bulletproof." I like the sound of THAT.

Question, given that Jags were in most cases set up as ROAD cars, just HOW does that 12 perform in a drag race? No joke, I am curious.

 

I guess it depends. The 5.3 liter V12 engines come in two flavors - flat head and HE. The HE is a vortex high efficiency combustion chamber head that runs a very high CR and also lean. The flat head has the combustion chambers in the piston crowns.

The HE engines were all injected. The earlier flat heads were carb'd.

All the V12s have the ability to be run up to 7 liters or more but the bigger you go the more $$$$. The crankshafts are the toughest around, period. They are so hard it is tough to grind them for a longer stroke. Doing so kills the hardening anyway.

The lower end of these motors looks like it is out of a locomotive. But they can spin to 6500 or even 7500 easily.

There is a lot of information on these engines available on the internet - search for Kirby Palm's XJ-S book.

The nice thing about these motors is that they are easily available for free or a few bucks. They are really the only V12 available for someone on a budget. The key is to get one that has not been seized as these motors typically can go 200K miles.

A friend of mine had a built Jag V12 with twin Whipple superchargers. Now that was some strong sumbitch.

If you want a carb'd motor it must be a flathead. The HE motors have to be EFI since they are much more sensitive to A/F ratios.

These motors are on the heavy side and that is the single biggest thing that killed them in terms of production. The water jackets hold an incredible amount of coolant. Therefore there is too much thermal mass and as a result these engines did not do well with cold start emissions certification. Nowadays the auto makers want engines that get up to operating temp very quickly. With all that coolant and aluminum and heavy wet liners, the Jag V12s took too long (in emissions terms) to get up to temp, and that was a problem, as was the fact that they were so heavy to begin with (means more material at higher cost plus an overall heavier car, etc etc.).

 

Plym49, a hell of a thorough and pointed response! THANKS for that info, man!

(Now, WHERE can I go to get one of those FREE Jag 12s? LOL)

 

Here are a couple of pictures of my Jaguar V12. Got a few tips from plym49 to help get me started. Despite their reputation they are well built engines, just a little more expensive to properly maintain than a SBC.

 

I saw a Ferrari V-12 powered 32 at Bonneville just driving around that was supposed to be an Oakland Roadster Show winner. That is an experience the guy will regret for a long time. Salt is not show car friendly, incredable car though.

 

LocomotiveBreath, yes, that sure looks DIFFERENT from the other 12s on this thread AND most American V-8s, as well -- SO narrow. BUT, it's QUITE an impressive-looking engine!

THANKS VERY MUCH for sharing the pix, buddy!

 

NP! Craigslist or the local ads. Someone always has a dead XJ12 or XJ-S in their driveway.

If you find a motor out of the car, spin it by hand. If it is locked or has a hard spot, probably a cylinder is scored. It is very unusual for the lower end to be bad. If it spins all the way around, it should be a good one.

The Lucas-ignitioned V12s had a chronic problem where the centrifugal advance would lock up in the retarded position. The ignition would be retarded while running (these motors like a lot of advance: timing is checked at 3500 rpm and the timing marks are UNDER the damper - this is always an exciting procedure as you are under the car with the timing light and your bud is inside revving it - you gotta really trust him lol).

Anyway, so here the driver is running around time retarded and never knows it since these motors are so strong. But the motor is running on the warm side. As soon as one of the two thermostats fails, and they tend to fail, the motor runs real hot and if the thermostat that sticks is on the bank opposite the temp sender - guess what - you cook a V12. This happened way too often and is one of the things that led to their bad reputation (the engine compartments were ovens anyway n the best day). OTOH, this is basic stuff so if you inderstand the situation you will never have a problem.

The cure, BTW, is to remove the distributor and free the shaft and lube it with synthetic oil. The shafts never sieze after that (the factory lube tended to gunk up). Use the correct thermostats with jiggle pins facing up.

The Lucas ignition V12s were replaced by Magneti Marelli ignition cars. These tended to set the car on fire, but that's another story..............

 

Here's a wonderful secret about these motors: They use a standard TH400 tranny but in a special case with the Jag bolt pattern. Inside, they are a standard TH400 that anyone can rebuild any way they want. BTW in stock form the vacuum regulator is set to shift at granny rpm. Address that with an aftermarket regulator and all of a sudden you are smoking the tires on every shift.

The second thing is that even though this is a different bolt pattern, the dowel pins are in the exact same locations as a regular Chevy. They are a different diameter, so you do need stepped dowels, but this fact makes it super simple to adapt a Chevy bellhousing/transmission. The flywheel, etc. still needs to be worked out, of course.

Sorry to hijack this thread with all this Jag V12 stuff but since the thread is about the feasibility of V12 engines in a rod, these motors are candidates.

 

Damn, I love the headers and induction setup. That thing is awesome. Is it a flat head motor?

 

Nope it's an HE motor. The EFI just doesn't have the look I want. I think I can make it work with the carburetors (Holley 450's), if not you can say you warned me. I added a 1" plenum balance tube under the intakes that is tucked down in the valley. Rebuilt and recurved the distributor, mechanical advance only now. I'll let you know how it works out and post a YouTube video of the results. I'm going to PM ya, I have an oil cooler question.

 

Hey, anything can be done, with 2 4's you should have a lot of tuning possibilities. Get used to pulling those plugs to read them.

Tell you what, if you hit on a formula for a carbureted HE engine you are on to something, since the HE engines outnumber the flathead motors by a zillion to one.

How did you snake the balance tube past the distributor?

Watch that stock vacuum advance. They diaphragms on the stock units like to dry out, crack and fail. I used to repair them by grafting on an off-the-shelf SBC vacuum advance.

 

Glad you like it. The truth is the Jag. V12's are really the only affordable, readily available V12's to the hot rodder with an average budget. I have several of the GMC 702 V12's as well but they are really too heavy for most applications. But they work well in trucks.

 

Those half-moon seals at the back of the tappet box/cam covers can be replaced with something solid. Easiest is to remove the rubber and clean the cavity with brake cleaner and fill with Marine Tex or JBWeld. The rubber half moons may harken to the way the motors were machined on the line. They shrink and then you have a nasty oil leak.

 

The vacuum advance is completely gone. The distributor is now mechanical advance only. I ran the balance tube under the distributor on the right side, there is just enough room with the vacuum adv. diaphragm out of the way.

 

The picture really isn't clear enough to see them but I installed the aluminum half-moon inserts that use the little o-rings to seal. I think they are pretty slick and the factory should have built them like that.

 

That will work fine. I though the photo was with the rubber seals painted.

There's a lot of things the factory should have done on these cars. An accumulation of silly errors killed the brand's reputation. Look at a new Aston Martin - beautiful car - and underneath it is all XJ-S architecture. The Aston Martin is what the XJ-S should have become.

 

That's so cool. It's totally insane, but that's a part of why it's so cool.

 

Maybe the real title of this thread should be "Why don't we all just build Blastolene Specials?" with the biggest engine we can find anywhere on the planet. I saw this V-16 on a semi trailer at a truck stop in Kansas a month ago and that thought immediately went through my head. NOT.

 

StillOutThere, yaaaah-ha! WOW, what a BEAST!!!

 

That is amazing. Look at the size of it.