Hot Rods Packard V-12 in Hotrods?

Okay, guys, we got off topic with Jags & mega-motors.

How about info on Packard V-12s???

 

Fair point - let me weigh in on that.

I believe that almost any vintage or traditional engine belongs in some hot rod, somewhere. Yes the early Packards might have their technical challenges, but what vintage engine doesn't? We just know more about flatheads and bangers and MoPar L-heads, so we are better equipped to understand the issues and address them cost-effectively.

Personally, I love the look of a vintage engine. There is nothing like seeing some of these great old motors sitting in a museum; I would rather see them in a running car.

 

Plym49 said: "There is nothing like seeing some of these great old motors sitting in a museum; I would rather see them in a running car."

WELL stated! Yeah, nice to see them preserved, but museums always seem one-dimensional, ya know? That's why I prefer rod runs, cars shows, cruise-ins, etc., where yo can SEE AND HEAR the mills in operation! After all, sitting still isn;t what they were MADE for!!!

 

Plym49 said: "Yes the early Packards might have their technical challenges, but what vintage engine doesn't? We just know more about flatheads and bangers and MoPar L-heads, so we are better equipped to understand the issues and address them cost-effectively."

Another great point! When we go to drop a vintage engine into a 'rod, we just need to consider how it operated in the first place and PLAN not to push it too far. They ain't all 392s, eh?

 

Very interesting. Do any of these engines survive in running form, and have any of them been recorded? I'd be really interested to hear what Enzo thought was an inspiring engine sound.

 

The engine in the pic #1 is the only engine left (of two built). It was set up to run back in the sixties and they had it running in the pits at the Indy 500 race in 1969. There is a audio tape of it running and the prior owner of the engine (Brad Skinner) sent a copy of this tape to The Baroness Maria D'Avanzo who bought the 299 #2 car (#2 engine with the 1919 body) in 1921 and raced it at Fanoe in Denmark. This #2 car was the same car that Enzo Ferrari raced against in November of 1920 at Gallarate. D"avanzo apparently sold the car to Ascari (she traded it for 501 Fiat), so Simon Moore felt Enzo may have even had the chance to drive the car. I have a copy of the letter from her thanking Brad for sending the tape. A friend of mine played the tape a few years ago but it did not sound as good as the car sounds in person so I never tried to get a copy. I used to run it in my shop but quit running it because without headers I did not want to take a chance of warping the valves on a cold start (I would generally only start it once in a blue moon and then after friends would stop by and we would be tipping a few, so I kind of figured I don't want to go backwards on the engine as it ran great). If you have ever heard a Liberty 12 in a boat you would know what is meant by loud noise. This engine is not quite as loud as the big 1650 engines but there is no mistaking it as a Liberty, and it sounds more like a racing engine than the 1650 engines do. Many of the old racers of this era are loud but the noise and the 12 cylinders and the lope is quite special in my opinion. I have always enjoyed 12s, they have a different melody so to speak. I believe Peter DePaolo in his articles entitled "I Drove the Boards" said when he was under the grandstands he could still always hear Undle Ralph rounding this end of the track as it was always the loudest car out there (or something to that effect-I have not read the article in years-so don't quote me verbatim).

People used to tell me that the intake looked good but was probably inefficient (Packard tried a couple of different intakes before settling on this one-you can see this particular intake on all of the DePalma pictures). When I used to run it I would only smile at the extreme naivete of these dime store critics. The engineers behind this engine knew more than most of these railbirds anyways. It belches flame bullets out the exhaust ports and you could literally put a ruler on the 12" long bullet flames.

Life has a way of throwing up roadblocks on having fun, but work and lately health issues, other projects and occasionally that ole stickler of lack of funds, have pushed the 299 aside. I am hopeful to get the engine back in a chassis in the next year. Then I will fabricate headers and start running it on a regular basis. I may contact my friend and see if he has a copy of the tape. If he does I may see if its sounds worth duplicating. When you hear it in person and then on tape it is like kissing your sister-Jim

 

Here is a Liberty V12 in a vintage boat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXS3GBRX1Ys

 

Good choice. That is a GE locomotive engine . Now if it would have been an EMD...

Sorry for getting off topic but I couldn't resist.

 

I worked on a portable rock crusher a few summers ago. Out motivation (generator pack) was a 3512 Cat V12. That is a large engine, twin turbos; the pipe coming out of the turbos was 10-12" where it came together. I would walk across the air runners on top of the engine when I checked the coolant before starting it each morning. I believe it put out 1700 hp.

 

Here is a sound bite of Babs with a Packard Liberty 12. This car had killed its driver so they buried it where it last raced on the sands of Pendine. It was dug up not long ago and recreated. Great piece-hope it works-Jim

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=u1-yEnUAO1w

 

Wow, 171 mph in 1926 that is impressive.

 

Just curious, how much does the Packard "automotive" V12 weigh? It does look really heavy.

 

To be honest I forget how much it weighs. I have it written down somewhere but it is not as heavy as it may look at first glance. If you look at it most of what you see is aluminum. The jugs of course are not but the crankcase, the cam gear housing and the cam Drive housing are all aluminum as is the intake. You have to figure how small the pistons are and the rods etc. The cam gear drive is all spur gears so there is a bit of iron and steel but there is quite a mass of light weight alloy as well-Jim

 

What a great thread.

Great article about Ralph DePalma and the racing Packard....
www.king-of-the-boards.com/ then click 'recent articles'

 

This is the automotive Packard I was curious about. It looks all iron to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJjs7hSycqo

 

You are correct there is quite a bit of iron in the Packard twelves of the thirties. Most of these twelves did have aluminum heads but the rest of the engine was big and heavy and that is why in my early post I referred to them being better suited to powering luxury cars and not hot rods. They are a great motor though. When I used to drive my 37 12 RS Coupe you could not hear the engine when at speed but could hear the wind coming around the windshield. At close to 6000 lbs when you went over a RR track you would barely feel it. As far as a driving car I have never driven anything better than a 37-39 Packard Twelve (they had a better front suspension by 37 in my opinion).-Jim

 

Kurtis, although these 23 racers were 6 cylinder cars they were truly jeweled creations that were never put to the test. After the debacle at Indy in 23 they were for the most part destroyed. Brad Skinner who I bought my engine off of, found and saved the only remnants of those cars and the Packard Museum in Ohio now have the parts. Not much left sadly. I have talked to a couple of people that have contemplated recreating the cars before the Museum bought the parts.

It would have been fun to see if these cars could have given Harry Miller a run for his money in 23 or 24. They were well designed but they never got the bugs out and if you read Jesse Vincent's diary he told the Packard President the night before the race they were not ready for prime time but they went ahead anyways and all three were parked one by one. The Packard management at this time was not really into racing (and in all truth had not been since President Henry Joy left in the teens to go build the Lincoln Highway. Alvin Macauley was into sales and not speed sadly.

Gary Doyle's book on DePalma is one of the best books on auto racing (as well as his earlier book on Murphy). I got to know Gary when he wrote the book on DePalma and I wish he would write more books on the Golden days. If anyone deserved that a good book be written about him, it was DePalma. The guy won at Indy (led 613 laps at Indy, the most of any driver until Al Unser Sr passed him in his last Indy ride with 615 I believe), set numerous track and worlds records on the boards, won scores of races on small dirt tracks, won several of Americas best road course events and set the land speed record in 1919. I have a trivia book that ask the question who has won more races, AJ Foyt, Richard Petty or Ralph DePalma and the answer was DePalma-he won more than both of those greats combined. Even if they stretched the truth a tad (I don't have their statisitics in front of me) he was pretty decent behind the wheel.Jim

 

Kurtis of Melbourne wrote: "What a great thread."

I'm really pleased SO many guys really gravitated to this Packard 12 thread, occasional digressed to some interesting multi-cyl. themes, AND posted GREAT pix, a wealth of fact and informed opinion, plus quality links to more Packard data and history!

I am also a little puzzled why, if guys have enjoyed this so much, why has nobody at ALL gone to the top of the page and given this thread a rating? If some guys would take a minute & do this, maybe MORE guys would open it and find what great stuff you all have posted. Just a thought. I don't normally campaign to feather my own nest!

 

Damn, that motor would look fantastic in a rod.

 

I like hot rods as much as I like any cars but if you ever worked on one of these Packard 12s from the thirties you may do a little head scratching if someone proposed building a hot rod with one. Just as the video of Tom La Ferriere's Packard shows they are pretty silent but the video does not show the size. Maybe the overhead shot of the engine while I was detailing it may show the size. They are not a high revving engine though-lots of torque but the nose weight would be incredible.

Still my all time favorite as a luxury car but it would not make my all time hot rod list. They are a great engine to look at though.

Here are some pics of a 35 12 Convertible sedan I restored in the eighties. Some before and after pics. This car went from being retrieved from a junkyard to a bunch of first place trophies over five years. Had a great time restoring and showing this car and made some great friends, including Ron Fournier who did the metal work on the car, which was quite substantial. This car drove like a dream-hard to beat a Packard 12 for sheer driving enjoyment.-Jim

Overhead restoration pic


before engine


before on the hook to the way to the shop


after showing the engine


after at Meadowbrook with first place ribbon in the eighties

 

Impressive, very nice work Jim.

 

Nice. That 38 in the background looks familiar Here's another restored 12, my favorite model year, 34.



It's in this one. We restored this car in 94.


Did I ever mention I like Packards?

 

Very nice Highlander and as you can tell as well I am partial to Packards myself. Did you do the 38 at Meadowbrook?-it was no slouch for sure-Jim

 

JimDillon, Highlander, et.al., BEAUTIFUL '30s Packard 12s, guys!

I guy I shouldn't have been at all surprised that a thread on the Packard would occasionally stray to discussion of OTHER V-12s. SO, since the above-pictured '30s models came up, I would like to ASK you V-12 lovers if any of you ever had the pleasure of driving a Pierce 12. If so, how was the driving experience in comparison with the Packards?

(BTW, I am aware that the Pierce Arrow 12 design was so sound that Seagrave bought engines from Pierce, THEN bought the DESIGN when Pierce folded in 1935, continuing to make their OWN version of the Pierce 12 'til '69 or '70 in my town here, Columbus, Ohio. Among manufacturers of fire engines, Seagrave was the LAST gasoline-powered holdout, after all others had gone diesel.)

 

Hey Jim, thanks. That 38 is Gene's car. We just sort of "renovated" the thing for this year's Meadowbrook. It's a Super 8 and was painted by Sythetex (sp?) in 77. It has it's share of patina here n there but the finish is back to show quality now.

That 34 is an ex Bill Chorkey car (my now deceased friend for many years). That car's a fun story to share. We need to talk over a coffee or beers some day.

Yet with all this talk of Packard 12s, and I love em, my favorite is still the 1101 8s and the 356 Super 8s from 40-47. 1101s are not all that powerful, enough for sure, but the balance and ease of driving...everybody, EVERYBODY, should drive or ride in one at least once. My dear departed mom could drive em with the same ease as her dailys. For a beam axle car it was never any better. I know, preaching to the choir.

As far as Pierce Arrow 12s for me, not a lot of miles under my belt in one but a short drive proved similar in overall feel but not as 'silky' as the Packard. I test my Packard 12 tune ups by balancing a nickel on the engine while it's running. Yes, it works.

 

Highlander someday I will take you up on the beer and the story.

Jmshemi291, I have probably worked on as many Pierce Arrows as Packards (and owned two eight cylinder Pierce cars a 32 club coupe and a 36 Brunn bodied towncar) and they are fine cars to be sure. When I had my shop in California I worked on a number of Pierces and belonged to the Pierce Arrow Society. The people in the club knew I owned Packards and kept asking me which I liked better, Packards or Pierce and I knew if I wanted to continue to get work I had to be diplomatic. I sidestepped the question as best I always could. I may say I really think certainly things are better about each and then may try to switch the topic and say that the 30/31 V-16 Cadillac engine compartment looked better than either (which I believe is true) or some other such nonsense. The truth be told though the Pierces were a bit more plain in the sense it may be built for a businessman who wanted quality without too much flash. The Packards were built for the same moneyed person sometimes but maybe one that wanted a little more flash-but not too much as in a Duesey.

I have driven a couple of Pierce 12s and my grandfather had a few Pierce 12s and they were great cars and a great car to drive but I will go to my grave kicking and screaming that the Packard was the finest car built. Once you work on one you discover that you do not have to use expletive deleted phrases when working on them. You praise the engineers that built them instead of cursing or questioning their judgement.

I can understand your affinity for a particular model Highlander, sometimes a car just drives just so. My 37 Packard 12 rumble seat coupe was a great car to drive. A 139 wheelbase coupe that weighed near 3 tons and drove like silk on rails. Sold it when I was hurting for money and have regretted it to this day. My good friend who owns several 16 cylinder Marmons just bought one identical to the one I sold and he cannot believe how well it drives. Unbelievable cars.

If I hit the lottery tomorrow, although a 32 Twin Six Packard Dietrich open car may sound tempting I would opt for a 38 Packard 12 Touring Cabriolet with a Brunn body. A close second may be the All Weather Cabriolet by Brunn. I also am a Brunn fanatic-one of the best designers for sure. I guess it may be some of the history behind the cars that intrigues me as well. Probably had some nice garages and a few other toys as well.-Jim

a 1938 Packard Twelve Touring Cabriolet at Meadowbrook this year


a 1939 Packard Twelve All Weather Cabriolet at Meaodwbrook this year too

 

Jim D, THANK YOU for the comparative perspective on the Pierce and Packard! In both cases, I think you touched on not only the engineering quality but the "feel" of the cars -- just how were they to drive, you know? THIS is the human element that is usually missing when goes to a car museum or concourse (unless you have the time to get close to owners for a chat, of course).

Somewhere in my disorganized library, I have a fine, fine book on the history of the Packard motor car. As great as the facts and photos are, it could surely have benefitted from some first-hand commentary from the likes of you and Highlander!

(As a separate aside: Packard management didn't make many mistakes as to products or marketing -- which is why Packard lived on during the Depression, while Peerless, Locomobile, A-C-D, Marmon and Pierce Arrow fell by the wayside. But, my point is that I still feel dropping the V-12 after 1940 was a mistake -- NOT because it was selling many units, anyway, but because merely OFFERING a 12 was an element of the traditional Packard "aura" or mistique.)

 

BTW, as a younger man, I achieved two of my dreams, regarding the U.S. independents. I owned and drove a '50 Hudson Super 6 and a '62 Studebaker Hawk coupe (w. 4-sp. B/W & "TwinTrak").

But I always wanted to ride in a '48-'50 series Packard. I just wanted to know how the car felt and performed. Ah, well, maybe in the next life.