I need some schooling on paint. When in history did we use lacquer paints, enamel, and finally polyurethane? Would my 50 and 56 cadillacs originally have lacquer? The reason I ask is because it seems that old cars - the 40's and 50's I see at car shows that have original paint, have a certain quality about them vs. some no-expense-spared shiny resto with polyurethane. I prefer the look of the original. When I go to paint my 56, what are my options to get that correct look? I hear lacquer isnt sold anymore. Its going to be a pale yellow with white roof. Thanks.
What is the "look" of lacquer worth to you? Are you willing to commit to some serious sanding/surfacing? While I know we all like to stick to a buget the clear you buy will determine the final look, depth, etc. Why does lacquer seem to warm us up inside? It's not the shine that does it, it's the depth. That depth is because it finishes flatter , and I don't mean that to refer to gloss in any way. You can get the chemical, UV and abrasion resistance, and not the least of which, the easy repair process of urethane and even tell folks it's lacquer once done. By now you and anyone reading are probably thinking "...such ********..." in some form or another. It's not, it's just that it takes a disciplined commitment of labor to get it. EVERY SURFACE from the substrate to the final color/clear needs to be FLAT. That requires sanding and cleaning and sanding and cleaning and sand... well you get the idea. Do a search about paint threads and you'll find my process spelled out. I've done it many times and frankly just don't feel like it right now. If you want to do base clear, for all the right reasons, you want a "production" level clear product. My choice is PPG's "Velocity" DC 4000. It's meant to increase shop productivity and can be cured 100% in a bake booth in under 3hrs total (warm up and cool down). It takes 45min at 140 degrees, cool it down, all done. Once polished and leveled out it doesn't look "wet", or like some imported toy motorcycle or RV. It looks like LEVELED OUT LACQUER. In order for it to have a true look you also need to level the color below it. That "cellulite" look that most 'thanes have is more often than not BELOW THE CLEAR SURFACE. Froma distance it looks out of focus. Level all the bases and you won't believe it. Here's a lacquered Packard door: Proof: See that depth from a distance? It stays "in focus" either right up close or 20' away, or even more. Ok, ok, it's not lacquer. It's single stage PPG "Concept" dark blue ("Packard Blue"). But it has that magic depth because it was sprayed, surfaced, sprayed again, final surfaced. The color was also made with a lot of toner (the transparent colors) vs solid tints. It can be done, done it too many times to recall, still doin it. Search under my name and paint and you'll find my steps. It's not easy, not cheap, not fast, but hot damn it works well. How bad do you want it? Good luck and I'll be happy to answer anything you may not understand when you'r ready.
To my eye the Packard door has too much "distinctness of reflected image" to be lacquer. Although perfection ( DOI matching out of the gun enamel) could never be achieved my goal when rubbing/buffing lacquer was to reach the maximum degree of distinctness of image. Flatness was never a problem. The goal was to match the sparkle of alkyd enamel (after rub and buff) with a flat surface (not achievable with enamel) The modern urethanes have probably the highest DOI out of the gun and for that reason I can't see it matching lacquer in that respect. Nice work on the door by the way.
one reason lacquer looks slightly different is how easy it is to sand flat and polish most urethanes have a slight orange peel look but can be slicked out just as good as lacquer some newer high build urethane primers and clears can sometimes have a "cottage cheese" look I prefer a poly primer followed with an epoxy and non-high build clears(3-4 thinner coats as opposed to 2 thicker coats) Highlander is correct slick paint is the result of proper metal/body work followed by proper priming/blocking the blocking part continues after the paint is applied as well.
Lacquer is great. Even I can paint something that looks good. Its pretty forgiving and its still available. Gary
This isn't really correct. Have a look at these real pictures from back in the day: I've taken a lot of heat over the years, have heard more times than I can recall "...never that good from the factory..." yet I think those 2 pictures tell a different story, yes? Both of those cars are lacquer, both probably (surely really) nitrocellulose lacquer. That depth, that true image from any distance, that's the thing about lacquer that makes you all warm and fuzzy inside. The images look like another dimension, as if you could walk into a different reality, the curves and shapes twisting it just enough to keep it interesting. I have a picture in a book of 4 ladies sitting in a Packard roadster at a gas station. The car isn't black or dark blue, if I had to guess I think 2 tone red. The photographer was back far enough to get a lot of the station in the shot. I'd say he was a good 30' away. In the door is a very clear reflection of him, his tripod, and his supply bag. These aren't show cars or special promotional cars, it's what the company sold. I have several photos that also show that they sprayed something on the car (I was told hairspray by an old guy a long time ago) and in other examples a powder puff was dabbed all over to kill the gloss and get a detail shot. Thank you for the compliment on the door, and just for reference the Lincoln Continentals through 1971 (72 maybe?) were lacquered and wet sanded/polished, I think certain models of Chrysler Imperials through about 62-4, and the early Cadillacs too up to about 1957-8. Maybe they weren't ma**ed out like we might, but polished well enough to make them shine like that girl's smile above. Enjoy...
Essentially you are saying that you have a technique to make urethane look like lacquer. I would like to see an example next to a lacquered panel. John
Mr Worden, you need only look at the 2 examples above, then scroll up to the door again. In Paint Guru's topic about lacquer I had posted this one. Both front fenders refinished in black lacquer since there was already lacquer in place.It was a repair/blend in January of this year: Deep, wet, very distict images in the fenders. The rears are the old lacquer buffed up for the 1st time in years. It's a big picture so click on it to see better if you wish. This is a help topic, it's not a contest or a brag. No, I'm not going to dissect my old files and post up more examples. Maybe the OP will tell me to **** off, refuse to use a modern material and insist on $600/gal lacquer. That's kool too.
It seems to me that the ***ertion is that the lacquer look can be achieved using the more durable urethane materials. I'd like to see a side by side comparison with the same color, same lighting conditions, same reflected image. I'm not saying it can't be done. I just want to see it.
My friend and I use to shoot a lot of PPG single stage urethane. When a lacquer look was required on a streetrod or older car. We had a lot of people ask where we got the lacquer. We would reply, we didn't. I didn't like it because just like lacquer it will chip on the nose easy and bird poop will discolor it if you leave it for any length of time. But it has a look second to none when done like lacquer. Lippy
OK , I'll ask again. What is the technique for making urethane look like lacquer? If you don't want to reveal a trade secret then I understand. Please refer me to a source for the technique.
No, it's not a secret. It's a high degree of additional labor required to level EVERY SURFACE of the finish. In base/clear it means Sanding the last application of base with 1000 or 1200 paper and a minimum of a foam pad, but leveled with a paint stick is even better. Apply 2 more light coats of base with 20-25% additional solvent to get it to lay flat, then go right to clear, also with just a dash of solvent (modern clears don't require it but it flows better, smaller texture or "orange peel") and lay the clear as smooth as possible with additional flash time. Once cured either by heat or time it also gets leveled with the same effort as getting the substrates level. You can't just use a bare hand or even a small foam block. A paint stick is best, save the foam blocks for curves or valleys. It gets sanded all the way to 3000 grit on a high speed short travel DA finishing sander (I use a Dynabrade) and hand sanded with 3000 paper where the sander won't work. The final polish is done with Meguires #3 and a wool bonnet, follow up with the same product on a fine foam pad. So the only "secret" is how OCD I am about a perfect finish and what it takes to get it. You have to zone in pretty hard, see the finish "through the water", listen for those little squeeks which is a small hard particle scratching the finish, wash the paper thoroughly if it falls on the floor, use a small amount of dish soap to lube the paper, clean it often to make sure it's sanded enough, start with 1200 (800 or 1000 on single stage 'thane) then go to 1500, 2000, the finish with both 3000 wet paper and 3M Trizact pads in 3000. It's just a lot of work that most will simply not do, only the most demanding clients will.pay for it.
You caddy was probably originally shot with lacquer, what is on it now is anyone's guess. GM was still using lacquer in the mid '60s as well as enamel depending on the trim level of the car. IE a chebby may have been shot in enamel and a Pontiac may have been shot in lacquer. Lacquer is stall readily available just depends on where you love. I can buy it here and use it as long as I am not a professional painter, for example. Not the case in good old sunny California. My personal preference when shooting paint is either lacquer or single stage enamel. it comes down to familiarity for me, I like the look of either. He spends a lot of time sanding and cleaning.
nice explanation Highlander over reduction with more coats is about the only way to spray modern high build paints for a slick finish we never use lacquer in my cl*** and enamel is only used for econo jobs and trailers. the main reason is to teach students how to work in todays collision shops. most folks forget that lacquer is mostly solvent and air drys witch is probably the main reason for a flatter appearance. newer paints are engineered for speed just visit a dealership at night and check out how bad some of these factory paint jobs are. The average customer never seems to notice it until after a repair. I have had to intentionally spray peel in jobs to match the texture. The newer water based base coats lay down much better than solvent based I recommend it highly, especially for folks with minimum experience, because it sprays so well.
To me the difference in the "look" of lacquer compared to urethane would be like comparing 2 photos of the same object one photo in X number of pixels and the other in 2** number of pixels. The level of DOI, clarity, whatever in each is ever so slightly different and hard to explain. The lacquer has a certain softness about it whereas the urethane has more of an edge to it.
You pull the pics and side by side them on your own. A fresh (January) black lacquer fender. Just took this pic an hour ago. Compare it to the door: No tricks, walked up and shot the pic.
My opinion, from seeing light metallic on brand new in the showrooms on middle 1960s GMs... The paint looked thin to me back then, meaning the sharp edges of body creases and door edges, etc...the paint looked "thin" and not like these items were coated with tons of primer and paint that would "soften" those edges. Is that what might be the difference in those high dollar ones you saw?
Not necessarily......its just when you park a modern car next to an original with original paint, the old one just has some kind of authenticity or something organic about it. Of course having a beautiful curvy body doesnt hurt in comparison to the tupperware bodies of today. Oddly enough, it sounds like modern auto paint is going the way of modern house paint. I paint home interiors and have used valspar, behr, sherwin williams and benjamin moore. I have to water them down to get workability. Modern home-owner paints have primer built in and are thick to reduce running. Problem is it makes it like youre painting with tar. Just used benjamin moore and it is the worst Ive ever used. 55 bucks a gallon and terrible workability. Great pigment and coverage but I'll never pay a premium for that again. Anyhow, back to cars. This 56 caddy is going to be painted in my 2 car garage at home. It'll be a solid pale yellow with likely a white top. Ive heard lacquer is pretty forgiving to work with, and that color is an easier color to do. To the guys who paint cars, if you were doing the car that color, in lacquer, in a regular home garage, what steps would you take in terms of prep? Im ***uming it'll need to be chemical peeled down to bare metal (rust repairs), maybe epoxy primered, followed by a thin layer of bondo on the whole car? Sanded down to what grit? Then how many coats of color? Sanding in between coats, or after all coats of color needed? Followed by Im ***uming 5-7 coats of clear. What sanding process for that? In between or at the end and what grit stages? I want to do the best job I can with what I have, so she looks sharp going down the road. Thanks!
1325, there are some great threads here by Paint Guru. Highlander has also added great info in those threads. Search posts by Paint Guru and you should find them. There is a primer thread, lacquer thread, etc.
=============================== According to this, in 1955 GM started using acrylic enamel around 1955. https://blog.allstate.com/history-of-automotive-paint/ But then this 1959 Popular science claims GM Magic mirror finish was acrylic lacquer. https://books.google.com/books?id=9...=onepage&q=gm paint type 1955 acrylic&f=false So does this - http://www.60impala.com/paintcodes.htm ============== And this, Fender guitar based page that cross references automotive paint quite a bit - http://www.guitarhq.com/fenderc.html The Automotive Paint Industry in the mid 1950's Nineteen fifty six was a big year for the automotive paint industry. Prior to 1956, all General Motors (GM) cars were painted with nitrocellulose lacquer (all other car manufacturers used enamels except GM). GM liked lacquer. It dried fast, looked great, could be rubbed-out to remove minor scratches and dullness, and it spot repaired easily. Enamels looked dull in about the same time as lacquers, but you couldn't easily rub them out to get the shine back. And the dealers and body shops loved lacquer for the ease of application and drying time. The DuPont color sheet for the 1956 DeSoto car line. Note the use of "Shell Pink", paint number 2371, second from the bottom. Originally this color was available only in Enamel. But DuPont also offered a nitrocellulose lacquer version of this color later as paint shops preferred using lacquer for repair work. Note the authoritative sounding comment - The only down side to acrylic lacquer is, to some, a myth. That is, it never dries as hard as nitrocellulose lacquer (hence no checking problems). And since it doesn't dry as hard, it doesn't buff and shine as well (many, mostly in the paint industry, dispute this, but as a painter I agree). Any old-time car painter will argue this to the death. Also catch the comment about clear NC lacquer yellowing, even on guitars stored in darkness. So I'm leaning toward nitrocellulose "lacquer" being used OEM on your Caddies.
Ok color me dumb, why would you want to cover an entire car in primer? That is a trick that body men who are too lazy to work the car do, a way to cover up ****py body work. As for coats on a lacquer job the old standby was 7+7. 7 coats or color and 7 coats of clear. I have shot lacquer over primer that was wet sanded with 800 grit, but if you are really picky drop that back to 1000-1200 then 1200-1500 between coats. I usually shoot my lacquer so thin that I rub every third coat but that is just my personal preference. Others will chime in with a better or different idea of how to do it, I have one best paint in more than once show and I am not a professional, just a broken down old mechanic.
There were more that these few "no" answers, but i'll try to sum it up shortly. The biggest NO, covering the whole car in bondo. Seriously? TV ********, or some ill-conceived solution to a bigger problem. At most, in my past projects, I'd layer 2 generous coats of polyester primer on something that can't be pruchased or can't be metal finished within a reasonable amount of time. The polyester primer is a high build of similar chemical make up but better suited to giving a proper and reduced mil finish. is lacquer forgiving? Not really becuase it's so heavy on solvent content. Those solvents will soak into the base layers and "move" anything that's off just a bit. With multiple applications it can trap those solvents too. Body repairs that were "iffy" or had too much fill will show up 3 months later. Sometimes even multiple times after a cut/polish to remove such. The final finish is what you're seeing in those cars that don't look "real", that don't enhance the crisp lines or curvy features the right way. The highest percentage of those are usually a job that was mudded up with fill everywhere, and now all the features are washed out. You'd also better hope it doesn't chip a door edge or get hit by a rock. Those ills will be 3 times deeper than a proper finish, and worse yet, they don't have the durability of a proper finish due to excess film build. A quality finish that lasts for decades is expensive up front, but over time it's less money because it's done right and lasts. If you want that lacquer look you need to spend time surfacing as I stated above. Surface all of it from the metal to the primer to the base color and then the clear. You'll have low film build, sharp body lines, door edges that look like metal instead of fibergl***. Do a search because also as stated above I've spelled out the basic steps several times in other topics related to paint.
Wouldnt you need to cover the whole car in primer after its stripped to bare metal and any repairs are done to prevent flash rusting?
I thought I saw guys on TV get the metal work 98 percent there but then cover the entire car in a very thin coat of bondo and block it out.
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