Period Correct Gasser + Predator Carbs

Alright boys and girls, here's the scoop...I'm in the midst of building a '40 Plymouth 2 door sedan g***er and I'm having some issues with what to run for carbs...the plan is to stay with a period correct '65 g***er that would have fit in with the NHRA/AHRA guidelines at the time

The engine is a '53 331 hemi extended bellhousing block being bored over to 359, 9:1 compression with modified early 331 heads, Hot Hemi Heads dual quad tunnel ram(I know, it's aluminum and not very period correct, but it's nice), '65 Mustang radiator, 4 speed gearbox and a '62 Pontiac posi rearend with 3.23 gears (it's the only gears I have right now besides 2.69's)...'46 Dodge pickup parallel leaf straight axle up front with added leafs, and the stock '40 plymouth leaf springs out back with added leafs and traction bars...

the problem I'm running into is this, I REALLY want to run a pair of Predator carbs, I've always liked them...but I can't find squat as to how far back they were made...and on top of that my brake booster/master is from an '84 Plymouth Reliant (because it's sitting in my driveway and heading to the junkyard soon, might as well strip it for parts)...so should I even worry about sticking with EVERYTHING being period correct and try to find some early 60's 4 barrel carbs and an early 60's booster/master cylinder for this thing, or just say F-it and use what I want to use?...I'd hate to have the look and feel of a period correct g***er when there's parts on it that don't fit with the time period...the brake booster will be mounted under the floor in the stock location, so I'm not TOO worried about that, but the engine bay is a definate concern...maybe I'm just being too picky...I just don't want it to look like **** even if it goes like stink...

 

man, it's a ***** to figure out what cl*** I'll be running in, because from '65-'69 my weight to cubic inch ratio changes me from B/Gas all the way down to D/Gas...what rules do the nostalgia drag racing events follow, is there a specific year that they adhere to for Gas Cl***es?

 

Well, I dunno the current rules...but I can help with the Predator question.

The Predator came out in the early '80s in its current form. It is based on a carb designed in the late '60s/very early '70s, called the Kendig. The Kendig looks similar to the Predator, shape-wise, but it looks like it is made out of stacked plates, or sort of very tightly horizontally finned. I have a pic of one in an old Car **** somewhere- I'll try to post it.

Me myself, I'd say run what you like, especially considering the Hot Heads TR. Sounds like a neat setup!

 

run what you like... just don't call it period correct if you are going with predators... just call it cool.

 

I'd say if you're going through all the effort of building a "period correct" g***er... why screw it up with some new parts?

Then again... if you upgrade stuff for reliability, safety or speed... that's cool too... but those things should be across the board.

I guess the bottom line is... how "offensive" and prominant are these parts?

Like running Holley carbs would seem ok... they built them in the 60's... but predators? I think of 80's camaros when I think of Predator carbs...

It would almost seem like building a period correct g***er... then putting a Wink mirror and a Grant steering wheel in it... blach!

Sam.

 

brake booster on a g***er? hmmmm....how about just hanging a single master cylinder on the firewall, on a swing pedal?


seems the Kendig patent was from 1973

 

http://www2.hotboat.com/image_center/data/520/1517htflp***.jpg

here is my suggestion, the 60's scoop i make ontop of your predators, disqiuse the slightly new predator with the scoop of the era .. . .
Also if you need help tuneing them preditors, this guy in the pic has this boat flat scoooooooooooooooootin !!!

Oh yeah, someone pop this pic up so everyone can see it !!! Might be able to get a closer up pic

 

By the time Predator carbs came along, the g***er era was over.

I remember seeing them on T-buckets with tunnel rams.

As you know, Holleys have been around since 1903.

If you're interested in learning more about Nostalgia Drag Racing, the links on this page are a good place to start:
http://www.roadsters.com/ndr/

Dave
http://www.roadsters.com/

 

this pic?

 

yeah, the brake booster is kinda killing me...I think I'll just stick with the stock '40 plymouth brake system and rebuild the M/C...I'm running drum brakes all the way around anyway...

what 4 barrel carbs were available from different manufacturers in the early-mid 60's? Rochester, Carter, Holley...anything else? Might just go with a pair of Holley's on a stock dual quad cast iron intake, but that tunnel ram is so ****ing nice...**** it, I'm going with the tunnel ram...maybe some Carters...we'll see what I can come across for matching 4 bbl's...I was just looking into the stock weight of my car and my jaw dropped...2800-3200 pounds depending on options...so that means with all the **** gutted out and aluminum floors it'll drop quite a bit, that is until that hemi and straight axle go in, along with that big *** poncho rearend...so it'll probably be around 2800 pounds with a 359 cu in motor...much lighter than the 3500 pound goal I was shooting for, thinking the car weighed 3800 pounds stock...

 

I love that scoop...what size aluminum are you making them out of?...ultimately I'd love to run injection on this thing down the road, but my main goal is to get it built and drivable for the HAMB drags next year...360 days and the clock is ticking...

 

Holley and Carter carbs were around, the AFB was being used on lotsa cars in the mid 60s, caddys, vettes, mopars, buicks, etc. The "normal" holley 4bbl was introduced about 1957.

 

I know I'm opening a can of worms here, but what's the most tunable pair of 4 barrels to run? something that will be easy to get dialed in and make adjustments to on the fly? I know a lot of guys like the Rochester Q-Jets, but I've never liked adjusting them or changing jets out on them...I'm guessing the Holley's are going to be the simplest to make adjustments on since there's so many parts available and such for drag racing, but what about the Carters? Are those AFB's good in pairs?

 

the Holley is the most tuneable. Carters are a bit wierd, as they have metering rods along with jets. Qjets are not a carb you'll see in dual quad applications...and besides they were new bizarre technology in 1965

 

buy a pair of 500 cfm edlebrocks from speedway for a tunnelram and bolt em on and it runs perfect............my 55 g***er (not period corect but nice, went 11.80's with a bbc in it with them on it and was a great driver on the street...

 

new? what are new carbs?...I'm still in mid-build for the hemi, so I won't have money for a long time...waiting on the pistons to show up so I can bring them to my engine machinist and tell him to make them fit...he's gonna get a kick out of that...3.8125 bore and 3.9675 pistons...I can't wait to put the 359 cu. in. lettering on the hood, it should raise some eyebrows and some questions as to what kind of motor a 359 is...I'm guessing I'll wind up with a pair of used Holley 600cfm carbs, rebuild and re-jet them and take the whole shebang to the engine dyno to get everything squared away...

 

Sounds like a cool idea in the making, but I would not use the original brakes on the car. If you plan on going fast (who here doesn't) upgrades the brakes. The intake will look as non traditional as the carbs, so do what makes you happy. In the end you have to live with the car so build what you'll enjoy. Intakes and carbs can always be changed later if thay dont suite your neads anyway. Hell, I've had two different intakes and three different carbs on my car in the last four years.
P.S. Keep the reliant master and booster but mount it under the floor "out of sight out of mind" Just remember, that master is for disk/drum combo.

 

there's no way I'm upgrading the '46 pickup drums up front or the '62 pontiac drums out back, if I need more stopping power at the track that's what parachutes are for...as for the Reliant booster and master cylinder, I'll save it for a later project, although if I used it on the g***er I'd have mounted it under the floor like I said I would in an earlier post...

 

To me Preditor carbs scream 80's pro street. I am not even sure early 600cfm were available back around '65.

Find some early factory carbs.......

or just allow the carbs to be the one thing that is not period correct.. something we have to make decisions between correct and whats available

 

the original kendig design was probably first out in the later 70's...if you were doing a period correct g***er....stack injection or a 6-71 with a 2 or 4 port.....but for the street....a 600 would do fine....hahah brandon

 

Actually the US Army was using the basic design for the predator in the '40s on one of its smaller tanks. The design and theory for variable venturi goes way back.

but in answer to the question D gas is cool as far as i'm concerned. D gas coupe is the cl*** for the common man.

You've already used a bunch of stuff that isn't period correct so why sweat it. The real name of the game is run what you brung or at least that's what it was when I was comming up.

It seems like most nostalgia raceing is mostly concerned with control boxes (like a dedenbauer) and you can't run a MOPAR in any configuration that makes 426 cubes.

 

well, I haven't used any non-period correct parts yet, I was just considering the brake booster, which I have since decided against...otherwise everything else (except replacement parts like brake shoes and such) is pre-'65...does anyone know what rules the nostalgia drag racing events use for their cl*** divisions? If I use '66 rules I wind up being in the B/Gas cl***, and the '63 rules put me in the A/Gas cl***...these are the NHRA rules...

I really want to know if any of the nostalgia racing events adhere to a specific year as to the breakdown of the cl***es, or if they just p*** you at tech inspection and let you run in whatever cl*** you have painted on your car?

 

I am pretty sure the Holley 1850 was out in 65'. A modified version was stock on many mopars of the era. I have an old Eddie TR1 that I have both a pair of Eddie 600's and a pair of 1850's for. I think they both look period correct.

 

I think I may wind up with slightly newer Holley's or Carter's, but nothing brand new and shiny chrome...just regular old 4 bbl's...I wonder how much is overkill for a 359 hemi with 9:1 compression and small port heads...I'd think two 600cfm carbs would be a bit much, but I have no idea how thirsty a hemi can get...maybe I should get a pair of 750's and just re-jet them?...

 

If you can't see it, run a dual-resorvoir master cylinder. That stock '40 piece is antique junk.

A matched pair of Holleys will be better than the Predators, but you need to be saving cash towards a mechanical injection setup. And a blower.

Exhibit A:


A pair of 600s will be fine, Hemis like a lot of carb.

Did I read that right, you're going to run a 331 at .155" over?? Are those new pistons Hemi specific? Or something you got a deal on? Just wondering, as I've never heard of anyone taking a 331 out to that bore, it sounds su****ious.

 

P & B,

Yeah, the variable venturi design goes way back, even farther than the '40s. There is a design that is from the late 1890s that is the same basic principle.

The Predator is a direct descendant of the Kendig, in the sense that the Predator's designers actually bought the rights/patents to the Kendig & went from there.

Johnnyx, I guess it really depends on exactly what era you want to do, but as someone said, the Holley basic 4150 design goes back to 1957, & the Carter/E-brock/F-M AFB is a direct descendent of the WCFB...so any of them would be OK. E-brocks would kind of stick out too much, to me, but that's OK. The Q-Jet was '65 on. The Q-Jet does make an excellent tunnel ram carb, with its booster design...but you have to be familiar with them.

How fast are you planning to turn it through the traps? And, will it get any street time at all? What's the cam overlap, intake opening point, & durations? All this will affect your carb choice. A safe, easy, low effort bet would be a pair of 390 vac. sec Holleys, but 600s would probably work better on the top end if you are willing to play with them to get them dialed in. Reference the secondaries together with the Holley kit, or solder tubes into the secondary lids & connect them with a hose if yer low-buck.

 

the .155 overbore pistons are super ultra mega top secret .030 oversize 354 pistons...that's all...nothing special...after the sonic testing we'll have to see if the block needs to be sleeved or filled (I've heard of people taking a 331 to a 4" bore, but no clue if they were sleeved or filled and how long it lasted, my bore will be 3.9675)...I figure I'm not going to leave any room for overboring it again since if this thing pops I'll just get a late model 331 or a 354 next time around, stupid extended bellhousing...

this motor will get some street time, but not a hell of a lot...I haven't made my cam decision yet because I have yet to measure the intake runners on the tunnel ram and figure out the powerband I want to run in with the cam and exhaust, I am thinking some 600 Holley's are my choice, with some 500 Holley's being a back-up plan...

 

Nostalgia cl***es are based on times, not Ci/Wgt. Build the car and run it to find out what cl*** you'll be in. It's not heads up, it's index racing.


Mutt

 

aka bracket racing?

 

Do yourself a favor and stay away from the predators, they are a supreme p.i.t.a. on pretty much anything other than a 4x4- and that is simply due to the fact the predator is unaffected by severe angles. every one I ever bolted on was the lean backfire creatingist peice I have ever dealt with. and they really dont like lots and lots of r.p.m.- the carb just was not built for it. they do a good job of maintaining a set r.p.m.-which is why boat guys used 'em for a while-but that was typically on low r.p.m. apps like olds motors.

if you wanna look old and go fast, a hillborn injector stack sticking outta the hood is perfect, but as far as looking old and running right (without a blower) find yourself some holleys-they still make double pumpers that look virtually identical to the way they did "way back when."- and if you want to "weather" them a bit, take 'em apart and hose 'em down with easy off oven cleaner- it just kills the green finish off to an ancient looking grey. just don't ask me how I figured that one out. I now know that getting a holley re-dyed is expensive!

given any thought to multi 2 barrels yet? spendy,yes, but properly tuned, they make stupid big power on a hemi-hemi's love holleys, but ask Jimmy White- a buncha 2's on a Hemi "does pretty good"