Technical Pinion seal leaking....again

Well, 2 months after replacing the pinion seal , its leaking again. Vents are clear but I did notice some grooving in the yoke when I had it apart last time and a bit too much end play. I'm ***uming it has a solid spacer + shims because when I ran the nut back on it stopped at the marks I made and didnt tighten further.
The drive shaft is at a very extreme angle and might be contributing. While in there I also tipped the snout down to get the trans and pinion angles equal but opposite. This put even more angle on the shaft. So I tipped it back up to where it was for now. I plan on dropping the end of the Trans to get the angles right later as this will also lessen the shaft angle.
I have a redi-sleeve coming along with a new seal, shims and Carrier support oring . My first plan is to install the redi sleeve and reuse the old seal if it's not torn. Then if it still leaks pull the pinion carrier (if I have room)and check bearings and re set the preload and install a new seal.
Heres my question. If I leave the pinion carrier in place and pull the seal, can I get the outer bearing out and use a magnet to pull out the shims and spacer past the shaft and the race or do I need to remove the whole carrier and do it outside of the car ?
Any other advice ??

 

With the drive yoke removed, (with the pinion carrier still in place) there is enough movement of the pinion to let the front bearing slide out on the shaft, so you can grab it, and remove..
Also, my 9'' didn't have any shims, only a collapsible spacer behind the front bearing..
The collapsible spacer does feel solid when spinning the nut up, but too much will collapse the spacer more, and alter the pinion bearing preload / tension..

 

Edit - scratch this! Opening the pic in another program shows the joints in phase. Sorry!

Hard for me to see from the second but I suspect that the u joints are out of phase - they absolutely are out of phase if the two pics were taken without the vehicle being moved between the pics.

If that's correct there'll be weirdd stuff going on with the driveshaft, which should result in vibration, which along with the extreme looking angles will possibly result in all kinds of problems, including unusual wear.

I'm sure others more qualified to comment will be along shortly

Chris

 

'End play'? Can you elaborate what you mean by 'end play'?

 

Yes, those two pics were taken at different times, the lower pic shows the shaft after I tipped the snout down to get the trans and pinion angles parallel. I'm really thinking I should just pull the pinion carrier this time and give it a good look. I'm pretty sure it's not a crush spacer because I was told the rear end was built and narrowed by Moser but never used till my Dad bought it for this car. He then extended the Right side back to stock length for the Roadster.
If I pull the Carrier I'm hoping I can get a good look at the ring gear, other bearings and **** out all the fluid and check for shavings.
It runs smooth and quiet, just cant keep a seal.
I never had liked the shaft angle but Dad had driven it all over Indiana for 8 years like this. Cant feel any vibration but who know what other damage it could cause. I think I can re do the trans mount and tip the trans down to lessen the operating angle and get the trans and pinion angles right.

 

I havent put an indicator on it yet but I can grab the yoke and there is play in and out and up and down. So I'm hoping its the bearing preload and not bearings. I noticed it when I replaced the seal a couple of months ago and it's about the same amount now. In hind site , I wish I knew I could pull the outer bearing and reset preload either with a new crush spacer or shims and solid at that time. I've never been in a rear end before now so It's a learning exp.

 

Once you adjust the angles make sure you still have adequate room for the slip yoke to move into the transmission. Decreasing the angles will shorten the distance somewhat between the transmission and rear end.

 

Good Point !!! Thank you. How excessive of an angle do you think it is now ??
My Dad said he had a local shop check it and said to just keep the u-joints lubed and it should be OK but it sure looks like a lot of angle

 

I would double check the U joints. A bad joint will make the pinion seal leak, due to vibration.

 

Will do... Thank You

 

Should lowering back of trans prove problematic, you could consider a cardan style u-joint that will take more angle.

 

It looks like you have around 12º-13º at the transmission. Usually folks will try to stay near a 3º angle. Enough to exercise the needle bearings in the U-joints but not so much that the driveshaft speed is changing a bunch twice every rotation

 

Good eye It's about 12 degrees. I dont feel any vibration even when the pinion angle / trans angle were about 4 deg difference. I tipped the snout down to get this angle diff below 2 degrees but didnt feel any difference. I tipped it back up to where it was to lessen the u joint/ shaft angle at the pinion.
When I replace the seal , inspect the bearings and reset preload should I re-adjust to get this difference below 2 degrees or leave as is till I tackle the trans mount ?

 

Yep, Good Idea. I thought the same thing if I needed to. Thanks

 

You answered your own question..... there should be NO up and down or in and out movement of the yoke. Chances are you have a bearing on it's way out or the proper amount of preload was never put on the bearings. With new bearings and crush sleeve installed, there should be 17-25 INCH pounds of drag when turning the pinion with a torque wrench. Any up and down movement in the pinion will knock a seal out pretty quickly.

 

Thanks, I'm hoping thats all it is. I have ordered a solid spacer and shims just it case it's a crush sleeve. I get conflicting info on preload for a solid spacer/shims. If it's initially too tight, then it will get tighter as it heats up and kill the bearings. I read on the board to set by end play, not drag and shoot for .0005-.001 " end play. Thoughts / opinions ?

 

0 end play, it needs preload.

 

While you did not ask specifically, it is important for the angles at each end to be the same. If you get into the dynamics of a u-joint operation and higher angle like you have at 12 degrees, the driveshaft does not spin at exactly the same rpm, it speeds up and slows down each revolution due to the u-joint operation. By having same angle at each end, and in phase as discussed earlier, it offsets this rpm difference and the result is a constant rpm at the pinion yoke.

Agree that if the pinion yoke has any up/down play that you need to correct that first, then address the seal surface with the speedy sleeve, and finally new seal. Once you have it apart, a new seal is cheap after doing the work. Don't cheap out on that.

 

Yes and the shims in that rear go where the arrows are pointing. Inside all you should have is a crush sleeve.

What I would do is replace the crush sleeve and if necessary the bearings. Pull it down to zero play (I like to use a dial indicator but I have done it by feel). If you have end play in the pinion that is likely what it knocking your pinion seal out.

Drive shaft angle should have little effect on it unless your driveshaft is really out of balance and then it would likely knock your outer bearing out as well as the seal.

 

Heres what I found on a Mustang board regarding a solid spacer. " for a 9" With used bearings should be only 8-14in/lbs."

Do You concur ??

 

Yep...no cheaping out here I had a Speedway seal in it...I have a Ford 'Benda" seal coming along with the speedy sleave, solid spacer w/ shims, O ring and a new nut. I'm gonna pull it this weekend and inspect to see If bearings are needed also. I'll reset the angles also after the repair to get them the same too. You guys here are the best, thanks so much

 

take the pinion carrier out and set up the pinion preload like you're supposed to, ie with either a new crush sleeve or a solid shim type replacement.

the pinion carrier shim that's in it now should be fine, as far as the ring and pinion setup. and replace the O ring on the pinion carrier, get rid of all that rtv ****, there is no need for it there, at all.

 

Thanks, Dad had the driveshaft made and balanced by a reputable shop in Indy due to him being concerned about the angle so I'm pretty sure it's OK. I'll closely inspect the Ujoints and reset the pinion angle to get them equal again. Ten re adjust if I end up altering the trans mount. I will be using a solid spacer and shims even if it has a crush spacer in it now.

 

I am no authority on 9" Ford axles, but I think I have a basic understanding of how they work in setting preloads, backlash etc.

While some builders may choose to use a solid pinion bearing spacer with shims to 'dial it in', I do not understand why that is preferable for general use over using the factory crush sleeve to set pinion pre-load. The crush sleeve is a one step operation, whereas shims, unless you are very good and/or lucky require ***embly, checking pre-load, dis***embly, re***emble..etc. With the crush sleeve you may have to tighten the pinion nut a little more, a time or two, to get to the specified pre-load, but that is easy peasy.

As for shims, the only place they are needed is for the pinion carrier fitment to the carrier housing to get pinion depth set correctly.

Ray

 

Yep... I say all that RTV and thought the same thing Will do... Thanks I still want to make sure I dont set in too much preload if using old bearings w/ a solid spacer. is 8-14 In/Lb a good number ??

 

My motors manual actually says 15-20 inch/lbs. But it is not thinking performance so the lighter load may be preferable in your case.

I forgot to load the damned pic for you. Just color me stupid. Arrows where your shims go. what they do is set your pinion depth and to check that you will need some marking compound and have the chuck on the table.

 

May I ask why you are so committed to using a solid spacer with shims vs the crush sleeve.? Definitely your call to make, but I'd like to understand the reasoning....

Ray

 

I will admit... I have no reason other than I'm pretty sure thats whats in there now and If I have to replace the seal again later, With a solid spacer and shims I dont have to worry about over crushing it. While I have a large TQ wrench, I dont have a good bench to hold and TQ properly so I might have to use an impact. But now...you have me second guessing

 

I prefer to use the solid sleeve and shims as it makes removing the yoke later much easier without dealing with setting preload on the pinion again. I have also been very leery of third members where people have used silicone to seal the pinion housing.
If I'm setting up a new gear/bearing setup I set at 18-20 inch lbs and used gear/bearing sets at 12-15.

 

Thanks, seeing the silicone doesnt give me a warm and fuzzy either. My Dad and his neighbor( a top Sprint car crew chief) replaced the seal a couple years ago so I'm hoping they just did it as insurance due to resusing the o ring. I also hope I dont find that they didnt put the shim back in