Technical Problem with new lifters.

Are you using too thick of oil? Maybe a 5w30 may be better. Try it.

 

Are you setting the crank in the proper position before setting the lifters on the right cylinders, then rotating the crank 180 degrees to set the remaining lifters. There is a formula telling which lifters when, but I don't have it in front of me. some one will have it to post I"m sure.

 

Using the EOIC method is the easiest & most accurate method !

 

This is the best. I was told ICEO “ice e o” it’s easier for me to remember, intake closing set exhaust. Exhaust opening set intake.

 

Logically it appears that you have good oil pressure initially and your rod and main bearings are getting good flow (aren't they). Since all lifters are acting poorly, it would seem that the junction where the oil goes to the mains has a good supply but the passage to the lifters isn't flowing well. Look at the diagram Joe H provided above. I'm wondering if there isn't a partial blockage at that point. Maybe some wedged in debris, maybe the oil pressure sender adapter protruding too far ? As the oil warms, it flows more easily (even though its supposed to be thinner when cold). It doesn't seem likely that you have another complete set of bad lifters or pushrods.......more likely one blockage somewhere that affects everything downstream. If all the mains are flowing well, then there has to be a problem near the point where the lifter galleys originate.


The only other thing you might want to try is putting some straight 10 weight oil in it temporaily and see if anything changes on start up.

 

A former neighbor with a Pontiac 400 had issues with oil not getting to the lifters/rocker arms (he had just changed the cam and lifters). Turned out the lifters he got with the cam were incorrect for his engine, the lifter oil holes didn't line up with oil supply in the block.

 

Both sides get are slow to get oil for the first minute. So If there is a blockage (if I can trust the oil pressure reading) it would be somewhere between the oil pressure sender and the rear cam bearing. Thats the only place a blockage can effect both sides in this case. Unless there is two blockages, one on each side.

 

Im planning to try and remove the pan in the near future. Will inspect the pump at that time.

 

Actually Ive been thinking about this. The only thing that Ive really changed is the lifters. The first lifter problem started after I changed oil and filter.
Cant really let go of the thought that the new lifters are bad though. But getting 16 bad lifters?

 

Havent worked that much on small blocks. What is a "soft cam"?

 

Thats actually my thinking. Some kind of blockage in the area between the sender and I guess the next junction is near the cam rear cam bearing. Didnt work on the car today made some renovation work on the house instead. But thought about this and came to the same conclusion as you.
The placement of the hole to the oil pressure sender is in a perfect spot to get som debris down it. I know that the previous owner changed the intake and carb. So he had it off. Also I noted when I removed the intake was that the sender unit was really lose. They hadnt been able to fit it so they had wired some thread seal tape on the nipple and more or less rammed it in there. So... perhaps a piece of tape could have worked its way down towards the gallery.

It will be real ..... to remove if thats the case.

 

Hmmm. Problem started after an oil change? I’ve got to ask. Did you try a different oil filter? And which one are you running?

We had an STP on a race engine that blew apart inside. Nothing but WIX gets used now

 

This is just a shot in the dark,but years ago I replaced a OE dist. with a MSD dist., for a customer with a 350 SBC.
Someone had ground flats in the lower register of the dist by the cam gear, which I assumed was an attempt to flood the cam gear with oil. Never seen that done before and probably not a good idea.
I have also seen distributors where the two registers were made smaller in diameter, because they could not get the distributor in the block.
Again, just a shot in the dark.

Bill

 

Ive changed oil filters two times since. Dont know the make of the first one. Bought it at the local garage. The second one was a AcDelco. Removed that one yesterday and it looked ok.

Thinking about it. When the first lifter started knocking I had the idea that i probably was some crud that had come loose when I changed oil. So I did a basic flush with motor oil and some ATF. Didnt work though so I gave up and parked it for the winter. Early spring I had to move the car so I started it up. It was really cold outside and the motor was aswell The lifter was completely silent. So my reasoning was that the ATF had done its work last few month. So I emptied it out. Changed oil and filter.... And the lifter started knocking again. Thats when I decided that I needed to change them.

 

Ive read about distributors than cause problems. However I think that will only be on the passenger side.

 

In the late seventies Chevy's camshafts were being made in Mexico. The cams consistently lost enough material to affect performance. The lobes would prematurely wear away.
I owned one in a van, 1979, that I religiously kept fresh oil and filters in.
It began to perform poorly around 85 - 90 thousand miles. That is when I heard about this condition, that was called a 'soft cam'.
I swapped in a Crane RV cam. Needless to say I could haul ass.
My 77 350 ran like a top right past 100 thou. ( the body suffered from commercial abuse )
Bought an 84 no troubles with that motor.

 

^THIS^ . . . Sounds worthy of some closer scrutiny.

 

The Distributor issue should only be with the early engines(55-57), If the lifters pumped up fine before the change I'd be looking at the the replacement lifters there is a lot of aftermarket/counterfeit junk flat tappets on the market.

 

The more I think about this there is only two possible avenues that sound reasonable.

Something off with the new lifters and/or cam. Dont really know what. Perhaps the cam has just started to give up or there is a problem with the lifters.

A blockage in the rear oil passage. Somewhere between the oil pressure sender unit and the junction between left and right lifter galley.

So what I need to do first is to get me an mechanical oil pressure gauge so I can verify the oil pressure. Also measure the pressure at the front galley plug. Let say for instance that there is acceptable pressure in the front on cold start. Then the lifters/cam will be suspecious.

Now if there is a partial blockage that will be a real .... My best bet for blockage is the blue area on the picture. Does anyone know if the green area is a removable plug? If so perhaps its possible to remove the head and go down that way.
Im also having an idea of trying to use vaccum. Plug the filter outlet in the block and put a nipple and hose to the sender hole and use vaccum to try and suck what ever crap is stuck inside. Long shot, but I dont have the space to pull the engine.

 

Im having a discussion with the vendor about this. The are a reputable company but I guess they can get a bad batch of parts without even knowing. So basicly what Im trying to do is get as much information as possible before I throw more money at it.

 

I was driving a company Chevy truck in the late 70s to and from work. All of a sudden it stopped dead and wouldn't start. They tore the engine down and found the cam had worn off most of the bumps in maybe 30,000mi. Chevy was famous for their soft cams in htat era.

 

Perhaps Im overthinking this .... Couldnt this just be a worn cam thats near the end of its life?

Lets say that a previous owner did what I just did. A lifter starts knocking and they change them thinking its just a sticky lifter. They sell the car without driving it much. The new owner drives it from Wichita to the coast in Texas and has it shipped to Sweden. I later buy It and start using it for a few weeks. The cam is a little worn but not so much its noticable. It runs pretty well. The fresh lifters take up the small extra play in the lobes.
I take it on a local cruise night. Lots of ideling and drive it there and home on the freeway. Quite high RPMs on the freeway. Bam, first start the next day, lifter knock on number 1 exhaust. I park it and later change the lifters thinking it has a sticky lifter. This time though the cam is a bit more worn and the lifters cant really take up the play anymore. So they have problem pumping the the cold oil trough the pushrods. But as the motor warms up it gets a bit tighter and the oil flows easier.

 

I know this is frustrating and you are trying to think thru every option. Sometimes when you finally isolate the problem its something amazingly simple or something you never would have thought of. SOMETIMES we concentrate all our thoughts on one thing, and the cause turns out to be something we never looked at.

First, I would examine the oil passage you have circled in the diagram. Remove the guage and fitting and the intersecting plug too. Shine a light and see if you see anything. Take a vacuum and use some duct tape to get it down to a small tube you can insert in the passage. It would be nice if you could remove the oil galley plugs at the front of the engine and run the vacuum tube into that as well. Maybe run gun brushes thru it and vacuum again.
The oil galleys make a turn at the back of the block, so that is very difficult to work. If you pull the front plugs and vacuum, I would also try air pressure with a long tube blow gun....then vacumm again in case you loosened some debris.

One question........do the lifters that stick all occur on one side of the engine, or is it on both sides?

One other thing I'm thinking is that maybe a valve is sticking, or a couple of valves and creating the slaping noise.

The thing is that you seem to have good oil pressure and smooth running when it warms up. Look for what is different when its cold.

 

Took a break from the garage and gave it a good thought. Was back yesterday and was able the probe most of the oil channels in the back of the motor. Even made it in through the side channel towards the back cam bearing and reached the junction just above it. Nothing. No blockage or even old oil residues or other crud. This engine is very clean inside. Even put some vaccum on the channels using fittings and hoses connected to my vaccum cleaner. The bag in it was new and my idea was if there is something it might show up in some way in the bag. For example small pieces of silicone or tape. Nothing. Ran the vaccum for periods of time and nothing came out.
So I would say that blockage is still possible but not probable.
I also read about spinning the rear cam bearing. But as far as I know that would surely cause problems but the oil would most likely still pass due to how the bearing and oil channels are constructed.

So I have now moved the oil pressure sender to the front of the motor. Havent started it up yet as it was very late last night and I dont think my neighbors like a V8 without mufflers as much as i do. So tonight Ill check the pressure after the lifter galleries. But best bet right now are poor lifter quality and a camshaft thats near to give up. Depending on what results the oil pressure gives Ill know more tonight.

 

Havent dealt with lifters forever, but the trend these days seem to be new lifters get taken apart and cleaned. Even good ones.
Enough manufacturing junk in them and each one could be a somewhat plugged restriction.
Might be worth pulling an cleaning them.

 

The passages would indeed need a significant blockage to restrict flow to the lifters. And I doubt it would ever get better after running awhile as yours does. Taking a full minute to begin to oil at the rockers is extremely puzzling. I would think any restriction would not change as engine run time goes along.

 

You had one bad lifter before. You changed all 16 and now they all make noise and have no oil flow. The only real constant here that was changed is the lifters. The pushrods are hollow so they either work or don’t, but the lifters are the biggest possibility for all the valves making noise now. As much as you don’t want to hear it, you need to pull the intake and change the lifters again. Elgin isn’t a bad company, but if it’s not an old Elgin lifter I wouldn’t use it, it’s most likely a china made lifter. For stock motors I try to get GM lifters NOS available on E bay all the time. For hopped up motors or if I’m swapping a cam I use Trick Flow or Howard’s lifters. Never had one go bad or be a pain yet.

 

OK, at least now you know that the oil galleys are not the problem and you are getting (because you WERE getting) plenty of oil to at least 15 lifters to begin with. It appears that the replacement lifters must either be the wrong lifters or have some kind of mfg issue. The onlt thing I can think of is removing a few lifters (one at a time so they go back in the right hole) and disassembling them for cleaning with carb cleaner. I would also try a different weight oil as maybe(?) a viscosity change will help. Beyond that, I can't think of anything that would cause the problem given that you have good oil pressure on startup.

 

Any updates?

 

chineasium is the problem, period!