Customs Product Development Question - Push Button Door Latches

OK, so I've been working on a universal Push Button Door latch system for you custom guys, and I have a few questions about how you all feel about certain design elements.

My goal is to produce a kit which can be installed in pretty much any door to remove the outside handles and such and replace them with a single flush or nearly flush push button to unlatch and pop the door open a bit, similar to the much sought after Lincoln push button setups.

First off, it is entirely mechanical, no solenoids or electronics of any kind. That's obviously not a question, but I know someone is going to ask.

Second, what kind of button face would appeal to you guys the most? Should they be interchangeable (or rather should multiple styles be available)? Or would you prefer instead that I furnish a button that is overly long who's face you can machine to suit your tastes? Would a raw aluminum button be OK, or would you rather they come polished? Or, would you rather they were anodized, if so what colors? Or would you prefer the button to be steel so it could be painted or chromed like the rest of the car? Alum should paint more or less just like steel, but to chrome it you'd have to have nickel plating done first as a substrate. I would personally prefer to work in aluminum, 'cause it's easier on tooling and the results are much lighter, but if steel is what the customer base wants, that's what I'll use.

Third, what kind of bezel or flourish would you like to see around the button? I'm planning on providing a ~2" dia sheetmetal disk to splice into the door skin with the button hole already in it and the trim bead preformed around it. The current design has a nice bead popped up around the head of the button, which is about 3/8" wide and about 1/8" proud of the door skin. I'm going to have to supply some kind of a flange disk with the button tunnel in it, the question really is what would you guys like to see the skin around the button look like? Would you rather it be just flush and plain, or a bead like I had planned, or something else entirely? Perhaps a few versions could be offered, though since the manufacture of this sheetmetal part will require dies be made specifically for it, I want to keep the permutations fairly low, to keep my tooling costs under control.

Fourth, I don't have a lot of experience with different OEM door latches of a lot of different makes, so bear with me here. If I can supply a fore and aft push/pull motion, will that unlatch most all OEM latches? Meaning, do most OEM latches unlatch by either pushing or pulling on a lever along the long axis of the car? I know bearclaw latches work this way, as do all the OEM latches I've got on hand, but I know just about everything has been tried in a car at one time or another, so I thought I'd better ask. Wouldn't be a very universal application if it wouldn't work with half the latches out there currently.

Fifth, while I have a pretty good idea of what this kit will cost to manufacture, I'm interested in hearing what you'd be willing to pay for a single door kit. Kits would consist of the mechanism to place a single button on the outside of the door which would unlatch the door and pop it open enough get a hold of. Interior handles and mechanism would either have to be fabbed, or sold in a separate kit. Would you prefer they were sold as singles, or as a pair? This will help me know if I'm wasting my time or not, so be truthful. It won't really affect the price I set, as that's pretty much dependant on my cost of production and my desired margin. I just want to make sure I won't land way outside your budget feasibility zone, before I spend a lot of time and money to tool things up.

Sixth, how important are locking mechanisms to you? Would you buy a kit that didn't have a provision for locking the doors from the outside? I know a lot of hotrods and such don't have locks, but I didn't know how you guys would feel about not having them on a custom. I don't think it's a matter of not being possible, it's just cheaper and much simpler to omit them. Perhaps another model could be offered that had locks and an elevated price tag?

Thank you all for your time, and sharing your opinions with me. IMO the end product is always better if the intended user is consulted during the design stages. Don't be surprised if I pop back up with more questions as things progress.

EDIT (2-4-09):

Huzzah! The production run of Lincoln door buttons is finally done.

Teasers of the unpolished button, right out of the shipping crate:

Top View:



Side View:



Polished pictures and a Sale Ad to follow in a few days.

EDIT #2 (2-13-09):

Pictures of the assembled buttons and prices are available in the Classifieds thread:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3604174

 

Damn this board moves fast.

All the way back to page five in just about four hours.

Wowzers.

Somebody has to have an opinion here.

 

I've always liked the look of the original Lincoln buttons, mainly because I have a Lincoln and think it would be cool to have original looking Lincoln buttons. I don't have a preference on material, but aluminum seems to be best. If I purchased some, I would prefer to buy them as a pair. I've been looking for an original pair and they seem to be going for about $150-200 on ebay. I would be willing to pay the same, especially if the work just as good or better. Hope this helps and thanks for trying to get these things reproduced.

 

Every little bit of input helps me make this product the best it can be.

I think what I'm going to do is finish my drawings and knock up a prototype to show what I've got in mind. Hopefully I can get more feedback with a working demonstrator to show.

Anyone else got anything to contribute?

 

Very cool for you to want to bring something like this to market!

Since you asked , here's my thoughts:

Finish- you'll probably have more takers if you sell them "finished"... whether that's full-polish or chrome. I know most of the guys here on this board would prefer chrome. A bare version for those who want to paint them might be an option.

Shape of the button: again, probably more potential customers if the button has a finished face. Unfinished faces pretty much eliminates any customer that doesn't own a lathe. As for what shape to do, you might find some inspiration from other parts of late-40s & early-50s cars. Look at hubcaps, dash knobs, emblems, etc. But most importantly, make it have a slight dish so your finger/thumb feels good when you press the button. (No pointy bullets, engraved skulls, etc.)

Bezel: keep it simple and understated.

Sheet metal ring: not sure how you plan to produce this part, but for many a square/rectangle is easier to cut out of the door skin. (Think cutoff wheels.) I know I'd like to see it with a nice subtle reveal around the bezel. But different cars have different crowns to the door surface, so this part leaves a lot of variables to deal with.

 

I would search lincoln push button. There was a guy a while back that said he was going to repop these in stainless and had quite a few responses but it never seemed to materialize into anything. I would think and would personally want a button that looked like the lincoln ones (size, finish etc). They are what guys that are building traditional rods and customs would be after and I wouldn't think a generic push button would do nearly as well.

I would also like to see them made out of something like stainless or chromed steel that would require little to no upkeep. I would think most guys if they were made out of steel or aluminum would want to get them chromed which would add to the cost and you would have to design them with the added thickness that chroming would add to them in mind and personally if I am going to buy one I don't want the added hassle or cost of having to finish them myself. I want them ready to go.

 

got a mock up to show your idea?..pictures worth a 1000 words..
really sounds like a winner if you ask me..I'd like to see the idea.

 

I agree that they should resemble the Lincoln buttons as much as possible. HOWEVER, I would guess that your real market might just be with the billet crowd (and they certainly like to spend money on new parts) and they would probably go for something a bit stylized and modernized?
Me, I'd want a button that looked exactly like Lincoln, but maybe with a smaller bezel or no bezel at all if there could be a lip in the skin like you describe. But you run the risk of it looking "new" and out of place, which puts it right back into the gold chainer market (which, again, is probably more lucrative but then the question is would they want something mechanical rather than electric?).
You seriously might want to post the same question on one of the more billet-friendly sites. I don't remember the name, but there's one that's pretty big. Hotrod.com? Something like that.

 

A sinple tear drop would be cool in chrome, with bevel.


Sorry, could'nt resist.
Locking is important to those of us who drive the cars all the time, into all sorts of environments.

N

 

I have been making a universal door button conversion kit for over 25 years.

It is in a kit form as the outer door skin shapes vary from one car to another, some change from front doors to rear.
They are made to be installed as a flush fit, so when painted are almost unnoticable.

Here are some photos of of them installed and in primer.

 

When I get my drawings finished in a few days I'll post a CAD mockup for folks to tear apart. I won't have a functional prototype in actual metal for a few weeks yet, while I hunt down stable sources for my parts and decide what I'll have to manufacture in house and what I can buy off the shelf.

Upkeep wise, anodized aluminum is way less trouble than any other finish, followed by chrome plated aluminum (which is actually chrome over nickel over copper over aluminum), followed by chrome plated steel. I am well aware of the design implications of coating thickness, this ain't my first rodeo on that score. The easiest for me to prototype will be high polish gloss anodized aluminum, so that's probably how the very first one will be finished. The sheetmetal patch for the door skin will be left bare though, or maybe coated with a weld-thru primer to keep rust at bay until they're installed, I'll have to see about that.

With a CNC lathe, the face of the button can be pretty much whatever concentric design that floats your boat, but I had envisioned something along the lines of a couple of concentric circles around a slightly concave center. Nothing fancy.

Since I don't have a CNC lathe, the button on the prototype will likely just be flat, but for fit and function testing, that'll suffice.

I have another question to add as well. When you guys talk about those $200 Lincoln buttons, what all came with them? Was it just the button and bezel, or were there other linkages and such included too? I'm looking to furnish a kit that folks can take an mount inside a bare door (with a latch installed) and have a functional system to unlatch and pop the door away from the jamb, as well as hook up to their interior door handle.

As far as the patches around the buttons, square inserts will probably be the way I go, unless the forming operation pulls them too much to stay flat. I'll have to see how that one shakes out.

Stay tuned, I'll keep fielding questions while I work on the drawings. When I have something useful to post (design wise), I'll toss up some pictures.

Thanks for your input thus far guys, I really appreciate it.

 

Nice.

That's sort of what I'm shooting for, but a bit too smooth IMO.

I want these things to look like they might could have come from the factory, but be much less obtrusive than a standard handle.

I bet yours use a similar concept functionally though.

 

If you want the Hamb type guys business, the closer it looks to a lincoln button the better. there is a demand for this, check the threads pertaining to these, the guy who was going to produce them had a string of order promises..
I would pay $200.00 for a pair if they were pretty close to lincolns, $300 if they were dead on. they are a perfect, stylish solution.

 

Your market will only be guys who have a 50's or later car that came with a push-button handle originally......UNLESS, you can include a new latch that works on a push-button system.

Most 30's and 40's cars have latches that work with a twist. Not very easy at all to use a push-button with those latches.

Why don't you include a new bearclaw-type latch in one kit to help out those early-model boys? Might take a bit of linkage for you to manufacture, but I bet it'd be worth it.

Now, as for the looks from the outside, I think this crowd would prefer it to look EXACTLY like a Lincoln button, in stainless.

 

Already on that one.

I've got a '36 Ford.

Stainless is certainly doable. It's just a PITA to work with.

 

No offense to Smooth Custom but that is definitely NOT the type of thing I would ever buy to put on a traditional rod or custom regardles of price. If this is the route you are going I think you are barking up the wrong tree around here.

These were posted on the other thread by a guy in Switzerland who said he was making them and like the guy who started the thread never answered any questions but this is what guys are going to be looking for on this board.

 

if you make look identical to the lincoln pushbuttons, i think you'll sell a ton,,,,especially if the price is reasonable

 

my main thought on material is the value of hardness of stainless. the aluminum may gall over time unless your design prevents any sliding contact of the aluminum, or includes a bushing.

I too agree that the more the look like the stock buttons the more popular they would be here. For me they could vary, as it sounds that you have the right style in mind.

for the sheetmetal, square would be ideal, and it would also be nice to have a recess for the button to sit in, but still stand proud of the skin.

It will make it more difficult to sell if the customer has to adapt their latch to work, however I would prefer to do it on my own.

I am looking forward to what you come up with.

 

Indeed.

I'm very much headed for Lincoln buttons, not the super smooth type.

They (the Lincolns) were my inspiration in the first place.

 

I agree

I paid 175.00 for a set that took 5 years to find.

i do like the idea that you could order the button with different styles that would be cool too. I would like the steel so it holds up or stainless. I think Gregg said it best with questions on aluminum.

 

I think chrome or stainless would be nicer than aluminum. Aluminum wouldn't match well with the stainless trim that's on a lot of customs, and aluminum can wind up looking sort of "billet". I think if you make the outside parts out of brass, it'll be easier to have plated than it would if it were made out of steel, and the chrome will last longer over brass than it will over steel. Since plating costs so much now (in this country at least) probably stainless would be cheaper in the long run. Polish it and you're done.

 

Rather than machine the outer parts from bulk stainless, maybe you could use stamped thin gauge stainless for the outer parts and have ordinary steel behind that. The bezel and the pushbutton face could maybe be stamped out of ~22 or 24 gauge stainless. I guess you'd just need to make some fancy dies and get a big hydraulic press. But the dies to stamp stainless probably need to be extra strong steel that's been case hardened or something. Stainless is tough on tools.

 

You are way over complicating this. Make it look like the Lincoln, make it chrome, let the builder figure out how to adapt it to his latch, just like you would have to do if you bought a set of originals.

You stated you don't have a cnc, which tells me you plan to do these one at a time on a lathe. Being a long time machinist, you are in for a lot of r&d and machine time. So far the highest anyone has offered to pay is $300. Thinking time wise to do this type of project, with machine time, materials cost, assembly time, chrome plating and packaging, you will begin to understand why nobody else has followed through and already made them in quantity.

The market is there, but profit is not. If you do it anyway, keep it simple and good luck

 

Not that looked like that. They were hidden in trim and under rockers. I would love (not) to see a traditional custom that had a push button like that.

Again I was not knocking Smooth Customs work but the right car, to me anyways, is not the type of car that this board is about.

 

I bought a pair of all-stainless repro Lincoln push buttons from a HAMBer a couple of years ago for something like $125 / pr. I can't recall who it was, but maybe someone else remembers, If so, you could contact him and maybe do some business with him.

Here's what they look like.......

 

I'm a machinist myself, as well as an engineer.

I said I don't have a CNC lathe, that doesn't mean I don't have access to one. I contract with a local job shop that does my CNC turning.

I have other CNC machines and a pretty good sized machine shop of my own, and long standing strategic partnerships in place to fill the gaps in my own capabilities. The stamping and forming dies will not be a problem. Like I said, this ain't my first rodeo when it comes to developing and manufacturing a product (or a product line).

The rest is why we do a feasibility study. That means prototyping, research, and testing. This thread is part of that.

I'm not going to be one-at-a-timing them on a manual lathe. If I do them, they will come in batches of 50-100 pieces. All CNC turned, CNC machined, and production stamped. No cobbled together crap. If I can't do them right and make some money, I won't be doing them at all.

Nay saying is not useful to me. What IS useful to me is telling me what a Lincoln button would come with for the $200+ you paid for it. Was it just the button assembly? Any linkages? What?

The originals were stainless, so that's good enough for me. You are correct that anodized alum will not have the same "color" of silver as chrome, which won't be the same color as polished stainless. Given the additional finishing processes involved, even though stainless in a PITA to machine, it's still less trouble overall than plating.

Alum would work just fine though. The ano layer on the alum is harder than steel, so wear wouldn't be an issue, but color match would be. Stainless will also gall, but IMO that is the least of our worries. Galling takes pressure and cycles, and this kind of application sees neither in sufficient quantity to cause a problem.

Niche markets are a different animal than mass consumer goods, and I have a pretty good understanding of how to go about that end. I just need to make sure I'm building exactly what folks are looking for.

 

those look IDENTICAL to the real ones,,,,,,thats a great price too...

 

Hmmm... not the type of car this board is about.
Think again... Below is the finished car a 1963 Holden that Smooth Customs showed the photos of.

And the Hudson below is another Smooth Customs Creation that Paul built and used the same type of push button system on...
Perhaps not as traditional as the Lincoln Push buttons. But these are very well made, very practical and good looking.


1963 Holden








1948 Hudson

 

Rik

Thanks for the comments and photos.

I will explain the reason for the design of the flush buttons.
In Australia we have goverment set regulations covering all the aspects of a cars construction and modifications.

When it comes to doors, access must be by external mechanical activation.
This has always been a problem with those of us that wanted smooth doors, just like the customs were saw in American magazines in the 50's and 60's
If caught by the police we were fined, lost points off our drivers licences and the vehicle was defected. These defects would have to be repaired or changed back to comply with the registration departments guidelines. With a time period of from 24 hours to a week, otherwise other official action would be taken.

So I started fitting flush buttons to my own cars that complied with the regulations but still gave that smooth looking doors. After a while others asked about them and I either fitted sets or made up basic kits that the owner or someone he knew fitted.

They are not always what everyone wants, and as with everything people buy or want . It is a personal preference.
That is what makes modified cars Rods and Customs so interesting. their individuality.


I to like the Lincoln push buttons, but can someone enlighten me as to how wide spread these were used from the late 40's till say the late 50's as I seem to have missed how popular they must have been seeing people want them now for their period correct customs

And on the cost of producing new versions, I would be extremly interested to find out how someone is going to produce quality replica buttons for somewhere between $125 and $300 a pair.
I have some background in design and manufacturing. But the costs in time to design and develope the item. then manufacture all the required parts along with buying in certain pieces. Outsourcing polishing and then adding in the time to assemble each unit. Add in a margin to cover the R&D and a small profit plus sales tax and post and handling.

Concidering the low volume numbers that someone would need make to test the market.

But to who ever does I wish you the best with this venture, and hope it generates the sales required for the time and cost involved.