Progress #2 - 1st Flattie Teardown - OMG!!!! -

Haven't ported it yet, Dave. That's scheduled for next week. It has been bored, however -- 0.030 over standard. When Rocky said it showed almost zero wear he wasn't kidding.

The bake-and-blast process also removes old casting sand -- pretty amazing. I had several SBC and BBC blocks and heads cleaned this way at M&R Machine in Glendale, California, in the '80s and vowed that that would be the only method I'd use in the future. Fortuneately, or maybe not, the Bay Area AQMD, in which Santa Rosa is located, also prefers this method, so it's available here.

 

Mike, how does the "bake and blast" work? (procedure)

Now if I could find someone up here that does it.
I have poked and prodded the water jackets for hours, and just when I think I have got most of the **** out, one more poke; and out comes some more.

Or maybe I could FedEx the block down your way.

 

Digger Dave;Checked out the label on the gallon of acid;no mention of what percentage of acid/water.I took it as 100% acid and diluted it 50% water and acid;seemed to work fine.It took about 4 days to clean out the block.Does wonders on any rusty parts;don't know about other metals...yet!
nice to talk to a fellow Albertan!Calgary won today!!

 

Well, an update on my Merc Flattie. I have it torn down and was going to clean up a few parts. Basically I found a broken stud in one of the water pumps. I started to pop out the valves and was only able to get out 5 of the 16. 11 of them have stuck guides. Which means now, I have to get those done too... about a $100 added to the price. Damn!!. I plan on using H&H, who did that flatty build in Rod and Custom back in May 2003. They were at the roadster show and seemed to be very knowledgeable and great.

Lets see...now I need new valves, guides, springs. I think I will be able to use the keepers and guide locks. Does this mean I have to get new lifters too? Can I regrind my stock ones?

Now Im trying to pop out these stuck guides/valves and its going to be a pain, any suggestion from the Flathead family on how to remove them?

 

Valves: Is late motor. Is easy. Popoff the retainers at bottom. Yank valves out top. Now you can put a big socket on top of guides and hammer straight down.
Pulling valves through will trash guides, as burrs on end and grooves + carbonaceous crud will be yanked through. In event you will be keeping the guide, just spend 18 hours standing on your head with needle file in hand and de-burr everything first...
I've got a variety of prehistoric tools for extracting flathead valves, but on late engines removal is reasonably easy with normal implements of violence. Inventing new tools for flathead valve removal used to be a major industry--you're finding out why. By the eay, keep a towel handy--all the blood you're going to lose in the valley can cause rust.

 

I haven't enjoyed any of my experiences with acid rust removal, except for phosphoric acid based stuff.
I always got a very grainy surface with a POWERFUL desire to rust some more.
I just read a recommendation for this stuff on the Ahooga Model "A" board:
http://www.cleanrust.com/rustsolve.htm#top

The guy who posted it used it to completely strip the water jackets of a running A, and sent in head-off pics of before and after that looked pretty impressive. I'd try it with the heads back on to do just the jacket area.
I jumped in big time and ordered enough of this stuff to fill a garbage can, but haven't tried it yet. I'm nearly done degreasing a couple of transmission cases, so I'll be reporting my results on derusting with this soon.

 

29SX276, ahh, maybe we can score the GREY one!!

Chopped, welcome to the "decision" process of flathead building!
Like Bruce said; "If you pull the old valves up through the old guides; the guides are "toast." Not to worry, they are readily available. (new)

If the old valves survive the disasembly process, they could be reused. If you "decide" to step up to new valves, (say Chev 1.5 or 1.6) and you want to use a better cam; then adjustable lifters will need to be used. (the Chev valves are a bit longer)

Reusing old lifters on a new cam isn't recomended. (and regrinding or resurfacing old lifters doesn't work)

A valve grind is a "given." (new or old valves)

Then; if you plan on a "mild" cam; most cam kits include springs, keepers, retainers and seals. The old valve springs are probably tired, and most cam grinders won't give any kind of warantte unless ALL valve train components are replaced. (oh, don't forget the cam timing gear; especially if yours is the "fiber" type; it needs replacement too! and if the crank gear is showing signs of wear, then you should replace it too!)

Are you getting the part that Bruce mentioned; "out comes the check book again!"

We still haven't addressed the "bottom end" (crank and rods) Does the crank need regrinding? Will it "clean up" to a size that a new set of bearings are available for?

I guess the best way to illustrate your pending project, would to be what parts can be reused.
Block; if no major cracks. Head surfaces may need trueing.
Heads; (stock) but might need to be resurfaced.
Intake manifold; if you stayed with the original.
Crank; if it can be reground.
Rods; if they are straight.
Oil pan; ***uming the sump is in the right place for the car your going to "drop" the engine in.
Starter and generator; are they in good shape?
Flywheel; does it need resurfacing?
Pressure plate; springs getting weak?; is a rebuild in order?
Clutch disk; need replacement?

These are about the only pieces you can "save" as long as they are "up to muster."

THEN! Things you will need; carb(s), fuel pump, (maybe a new fuel pump pushrod) gasket set, distributor, (maybe rebuild) WATER PUMPS (two) and the list goes on...

(out comes the check book again!!)

This is NOT what you wanted to hear I know, but if your going to "mess" with a flathead; you better be prepaired to "BLEED" a bit as Bruce says.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Reusing old lifters on a new cam isn't recomended. (and regrinding or resurfacing old lifters doesn't work)


[/ QUOTE ]

Never re-use old lifters on a new cam. You'll destroy the cam in a hurry.

However, the parenthetical (like that word? ) comments aren't quite 100% anymore - Red Hamilton (Red's Headers) is resurfacing lifters these days. Probably only economically feasible for a set of original Johnsons or something like that. But you can get the new hollow Johnson knock-offs for reasonable (<$200).

 

with the realization of the amount time and money ill have to put into this motor, I have decided to take my time to do it right. I have an old flathead 6 that I may run in the meantime. Both I really like especially for the "traditional" build.

The block is going in for a cleaning and mag. very shortly. My build idea is basically a stock motor w/ a few modifications. Dual carburators, mild cam. The rest of the motor basically back to stock.

I am looking in to the chevy valves, but the thought of having the adjustable lifters in makes me cringe having to reach in the block each time the valves need adjusting. (while the motor is in the car)

Since going to the LA roadster show, I talked to the guys at H&amp;H and thier information was great, but dissapointing. I mean, why beat around the bush and tell me what I want to hear.

Ill be definitely posting picts of the rebuild and teardown process. Your opinions are of great value to me.

The information is great and I appreciate the help.

 

[ QUOTE ]
I am looking in to the chevy valves, but the thought of having the adjustable lifters in makes me cringe having to reach in the block each time the valves need adjusting. (while the motor is in the car)

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll pretty much have to run them if you don't put everything back stock (cam, lifters, valves). It isn't that bad, really - you don't adjust them that often - not like SBC.

 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reusing old lifters on a new cam isn't recomended. (and regrinding or resurfacing old lifters doesn't work)


[/ QUOTE ]

Never re-use old lifters on a new cam. You'll destroy the cam in a hurry.

However, the parenthetical (like that word? ) comments aren't quite 100% anymore - Red Hamilton (Red's Headers) is resurfacing lifters these days. Probably only economically feasible for a set of original Johnsons or something like that. But you can get the new hollow Johnson knock-offs for reasonable (<$200).


[/ QUOTE ]

True, but I was refering to stock lifters. (parenthetically ) Mainly because they AREN'T adjustable!!

Ernie, I was speaking with Red a couple of weeks ago and he said that now that the new "knock off" lifters are available; he doesn't encourage regrinding the old ones anymore. Too expensive, and often there would be one or two that wouldn't clean up, so you would have to dig up a couple of extras. (and now days; about as easy to find as Rocking Horse **** !!) Humm.. that sounded familure.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Ernie, I was speaking with Red a couple of weeks ago and he said that now that the new "knock off" lifters are available; he doesn't encourage regrinding the old ones anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point - I picked up a set of these lifters on eBay for about $180 - they look to be pretty well done. Haven't run 'em yet

 

[ QUOTE ]
Good point - I picked up a set of these lifters on eBay for about $180 - they look to be pretty well done. Haven't run 'em yet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Was at a swap meet last weekend and a fellow was selling them. However, one of the old timers (flathead man, and also a metalurgist) wanted to test the hardness on the cam surface. He is su****ious that they might be a bit soft. (he used a layout scribe and it left a mark)

Four of us decided to "chip in" and buy a set, which he is going to test. (Brinell hardness?) IF they are OK, the seller will give us a discount on 10 sets. The new ones I have at the moment are solid adjustables from Flatattack.

 

sounds interesting...keep us posted.

 

Right or wrong,this is the method I use to clean a block.I knock off the big grease with a steam machine bath,basicly just a normal cleaning of block.Then put the motor on engine stand and work out on all water p***ages with a old E brake cable chucked up in a heavey air drill.Go through evey head bolt hole and every water p***age you can find spend 1 hour a least.Take a break then do it again.Repeat prosess again use a speedo cable.I also spray with rust bust oil a oil everything with regular motor oil.During all of this I am constatly turning the bock.My 2 cents worth.Have not had a over heating problem yet.

 

Flatdog, that sounds like a better method than a coathanger or welding rod. The E and speedo cable would whip around inside "whacking" against everything.

I was kinda hopeing av8 would give some more detail on the "bake and blast" process. He mentions that hot tanking in his part of the country is no longer used for enviormental reasons.

We can still get hot tanking done up in my part of the country, but like someone said, it doesn't seem to work as well anymore.

Earlier in this thread someone showed a "tumbling" process that would really knock the old core sand free. As much as it sounds like the answer; shipping a flathead block to them would get kinda expensive.

So.. for the moment, acid, poke, prod and "flayel."

Thanks everyone; this thread helped me too!

 

sorry that i don't have anything to add to the advice already given. but one thing to remember: if you don't have the time/money to do it right the first time where are you going to find the time/money to do it over?

 

[ QUOTE ]
sorry that i don't have anything to add to the advice already given. but one thing to remember: if you don't have the time/money to do it right the first time where are you going to find the time/money to do it over?

[/ QUOTE ]

AMEN!

 

[ QUOTE ]
He is su****ious that they might be a bit soft. (he used a layout scribe and it left a mark)


[/ QUOTE ]

Something to keep in mind is flatheads aren't subjected to the same spring pressures most overhead engines are, consequently, I don't believe they require the same level of hardness.

Also something to keep in mind is checking the hardness of the cam lobes - which do you want to wear first? And how quickly will they wear in actual use?

Not suggesting your metalurgist friend is incorrect, just things to wonder about out loud

 

[ QUOTE ]
Something to keep in mind is flatheads aren't subjected to the same spring pressures most overhead engines are, consequently, I don't believe they require the same level of hardness.

Also something to keep in mind is checking the hardness of the cam lobes - which do you want to wear first? And how quickly will they wear in actual use?

Not suggesting your metalurgist friend is incorrect, just things to wonder about out loud



[/ QUOTE ]

Ernie, he was su****ious of the box they came in. "Made in China." (maybe "knock offs" of "knock offs??" ; or "rejects?" )

He wants to do a comparison of these lifters against the hardness of a set of NOS Ford and a set of Isky lifters.

The "scratch test" is by no means scientific, but he wondered if these are TOO soft, they might wear too quickly.

He showed me a set of early hollow adjustables he had used in a motor a number of years ago that had worn right through the surface (cam side) and left holes in the whole set of 16. (it was using single valve springs) The cam survived without any damage. He said even though the box was marked "Johnson" he thinks someone was making poor quality "knock off" lifters 50 years ago.

 

[ QUOTE ]
he was su****ious of the box they came in. "Made in China."

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...I'll have to find mine &amp; check. But I don't think they came in a box...dunno - don't remember. I'll look.

[ QUOTE ]
left holes in the whole set of 16. (it was using single valve springs) The cam survived without any damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I guess if something has to give, I'd rather it be the lifters than the cam... Maybe those were made on a Monday or something...

 

Another quick update:

Danny909, Buddy Jeff came over to help tear down the rest of the Merc Flattie to send it off to be hot tanked and mag'ed. HUGE thanks to the advice of popping the stuck guides and valves out. The ole, socket trick worked.

 

There must be "super sludge" in this motor. It basically stained everything it touched. It was a bear to work around, which was impossible. I believe I dusted about a dozen shop rags while stripping it down. After the retainers were removed, the valves slipped out nicely. I was very surprised. The shafts on the valves were very clean and not hardly scratched.

 

With the valves out, we were able to proceed w/ pulling the lifters, then the crank, rods and pistons. The surface where the guides were did not feel too bad, I think we will know after the Hot Tanking. Any suggestions on how to clean very well. I am putting new guides in the block...I was surely convinced of that!!!

 

We flipped the motor over and removed that oil pan. Holy ****, it was damn nasty. 50+ years of grid and sludge...ewwww. Here we proceeded on removing the rods. Each rod was already stamped, that was helpful. Unfortunately, the bearings were worn pretty good, I think the crank journals and rods will have to be cut.

 

Our first few pistons gave us a handful of goodies. Broken rings. Most of them had broken upper rings....it was kind of humerous...Im glad I did not decide to slap this thing in and go!!!

 

You can see the crank was a bit used. Sure was a heavy ****er. There were very slight scratches on the crank. The bearings had a copper color in some places. This motor has had some miles on it.

 

We finally pulled the cam and oil pump, but we had one issue and that was the oil drive gear in the block. How do you get that ****-a out? Is it pressed in? We were glad at this point to have stripped the motor down. It took about 3 hours to do the short block. Lots of clean-up now.

 

Here is a pict. of that gear...how do you get it out? is it pressed in?

 

Again, special thanks to Danny909 and Jeff for helping. It was a mess and an half. Thanks to Danny909 for taking this beast to the Engine shop as well to get the cleaning process started. My working hours are a bit tight...A BIG help Bro!!!! Thanks!!! I leave you w/ this mess...im my damn garage...

To be continued: The rebuild!!!!