ooh... went back and watched the rest. he did a ****ty job on that inner structure "because no one will see it" . I'd take my car out of that shop. he left a nice place for moisture to ac***ulate on the inside so it will rust out later. hack.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from you post I'm ***uming you talking about modern collision shops? Where do you guys come up with this info? I've been in the trade for nearly 40 years, and step flanging has always been considered hack work. Maybe it's a geographic thing, but I somehow doubt Spokane is that far ahead of the rest of the world. Do you even know what a spot weld is? I've never seen a OEM repair procedure that allowed a joint like you describe to section an outer body panel. There are very few that allow sectioning of outer body panels at all. Some allow a step flange on the sail when installing a quarter, but not without welding the seem completely. And no shops I've worked in will use that type of joint due to the fact that it will usually show a ghost line. In restoration unfortunately, step flangeing is pretty common. I've cut dozens of patches out and reworked them because of this. Hammer welding is the only way I'll patch. As for torches I like my henrob. Low volume/pressure makes gas welding much easier. You can control the puddle without the pressure of the flame blowing thru.
I have a very good video from Peter Tomasini, he and David (Mindover) both do cl***y work. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to order one of their videos, true masters of the art. Also check out www.tinmantech.com/ He has an extensive line of tools and educational materials. As far as what methods are acceptable; As a mostly self taught dude, I just do my best to emulate factory work. If there were spot welds from the factory, put plug welds back. If there is a rotted section, **** weld a new section it. Always strive to leave no traces of your work. Flanged welds, never. Looks like hell, impossible to metal work.
i like the idea of hammer welding wherever possible because i have not seen a better approach. the welds from mig seem too hard to work and seem to take too long to grind down. anyone have any video links on filing a panel after hammer welding so you have to use as little bondo or led as possible? i guess if you led a panel it warps and then you file the led till the panel is flat? i tried a henrob, dillon, cobra or whatever they are calling it now. i thought it was heavy and awkward to use.
i like this video done by the tinman. made me realize that gas welding has advantages that i was not even considering: http://youtu.be/aF1Srs_e1Aw
if i knew what i now know from reading what others have posted here, as well as from watching other videos on You Tube, i would not link to that video or ask about it. i appreciate that you went back and looked further. i do not think most people would do that and then post they changed their mind. respect you for doing so!
Hey Joe, As you've probably figgered by now, there are many ways to work a repair, some of them correctly For me, gas welds are, and have always been my first choice as they leave a nice soft workable weld that can be hammerwelded and metalfinished. In the restoration business, squirtgun welds and putty arn't metal work, but with some work you're left with little choice but a mig. Blind access panels and low budget butchery work where you're cleaning up some puttyflingers work are two examples. Some who use the Dillion/Henrob really like it, but my old Marquette with an aluminum body and OO tip have served me well. As Tinbender pointed out, lap welded flanges haven't been an approved repair practice since unitbody construction supplanted conventional frame construction, but you still see the clueless and puttyflingers using that method. Good luck with your ''traditional metal work " " Do not reach greedily for the Kool-Aid ''
ive come across a lot of this guys videos, mainly when i was looking into vw stuff. his work and videos are good help for a lot of people. but in some of his other videos this guys at***ude is ridiculous. he acts as if he knows everything and treats his co workers like **** the whole time in some videos. its turned me off from even watching anymore
nice way to put it. for structural steel, arc, mig or tig seems better and faster than gas welding. just don't see mig for sheet metal because from the few times i've tried it the mig the welds are too hard to work. think mig for sheet metal is mostly all about speed and convenience and using less skilled labor. mig does not appear to me to do a better job. maybe on newer auto body sheet metals you can't gas weld and have to use mig or tig? i would rather buy a new torch than a used one especially because i don't know what to look for and would most likely end up with a piece of junk that can't be repaired. is your old Marquette torch with an aluminum body and OO tip still made? after searching and watching a ton of **** on You Tube, i found this which again opened my mind with logic that i did not understand. this is the first that i have seen a method described to bump and file sheet metal so you don't have to pour on bondo or led: http://youtu.be/LdLDOkEPFgA
Hey Joe, where ya goin' with that gun in your hand ?..................sorry, I couldn't resist It is possible to use a mig welder on sheetmetal, and do creditable work, but usually there is alot of grinding involved ( even with the Easy Grind type of wire) and too much hammering will usually result in a crack developing. As the HSLA (high strength low alloy) steels used for the past thirty + years in production vehicles would be ruined by the excessive heat of a gas weld, only Mig type welds are the suggested for use on those vehicles. If I needed a torch today, I'd go with the Meco, with the small two stage regulators & hoses. My Marquette was bought over thirty years ago, second hand, and was old then! That You Tube clip does a quick but fair job of describing traditional metal working pratice. Prior to the advent of plastic filler in the 40s, and its' subsequent acceptance by the collision repair trade in the 50s & 60s, that's pretty much the way repairs to sheetmetal were made. Back then a " Metal Man '' was a proud tradesman and well respected. I was once told by an old body & fender guy that a metal man could walk into any bank, and just on a note from his forman get a loan with just his his siginature! Can ya imagine a ''puttyflinger-parts changer'' tryin' that trick today? Plastic filler and squirtgun welders changed the whole trade, and not for the better! " Life ain't no Disney movie "
now worries pimpin, it's just a led gun. i saw a led gun once. i wonder if anyone still uses them? if i remember right you can't get the powder stuff you mix with the led to make the led spay from the gun. can't remember what the powder chemical is and not sure if i have it right. i guess the led dust is a big no, no today. wonder how well the thing worked. now on this squirt gun/mig thing... i found this. it seems like if you understand technique you can get good results using a squirt gun. noticing the more i read and the more i watch video, that it's really much more about technique and experience rather than tools. http://fergusoncoachbuilding.blogspot.com/
Joe, if you search on here you will find a few threads about the lead sprayers, even several guys that still have them.
thanks, I'll do that. few more questions if you don't mind. does someone make a ******* like ron covell use to make or do i have to make my own out of a leaf spring and weld on a handle? in searching here many people seem to like ron covell's ******* which i guess he doesn't make or sell any longer. are there others that are as good or better that i don't know about? seems like his works well because it's so heavy? do you have a stainless shrinking disk? i found a reference to Wray Schelin who sells them on ebay. is this a good place to buy one?
Again, search shrinking disk here on the board. I found a ******* here a few years ago when Killer was selling some surplus ones. I also have one made out of a leaf spring. Dig up a copy of Ron Fournier's book on metal fab " Metal fabricators Handbook" from the early 80s. I have had mine since 83 or so, lots of details on tooling and fab techniques
okay. i found a thread on it. i almost remembered right. ;>) "The tinning paste contained MERCURY in the form of little balls throughout the paste." without the tinning paste i don't see how anyone can use a lead gun. no way is anyone going to sell a tinning paste with mercury in it which i guess makes these old lead guns worthless unless someone found another solution that doesn't contain mercury. does not sound like lead guns worked well even back then.
The guns are a curiosity these days. I only replied about them since they have been discussed. Oh, and Killer is a member here. He found some surplus *******s at some outlet years ago and many of us bought them.
Hey Joe, Yeah, there are a few guys that have perfected the use of a squirtgun for welding sheetmetal, but I've never cared for all the grinding, and all the hard spots & tension it leaves in a panel. The ******* sold by Ron Covell had a good balance and wasn't as heavy as some sold today, but probably sold for less than it cost to produce. Look up HAMB member John Kelly for making your own shrinking disc, these days I mostly just use dull /dead grinding discs to produce friction. I knew a couple of guys who still had lead spraying guns in their boxes when I started, but it had been years since they'd seen use. Lead/solder has never been cheap, and the general feeling was that the time it took to prep a panel, tin it correctly, get enough of a coat of the sprayed lead on the panel, hope that it wouldn't curl up when filed ( which it often would ) just wasn't worth the trouble. A good metal man could bump, pick and file in not much more time than it took to lead large areas. Too, the use of large amounts of lead to shape panels wasn't greated with hi-fives, and you go dude, especially in restoration work or top drawer shops- kinda like the use of plastic filler today. Products containing mercury such as the powder used in spraying lead as well as the dry paste used to tin repair areas prior to leading, have been missing from the shelves of auto body supply houses for decades. " Humpty Dumpty was pushed "
hey, pimpin. i admit i'm a total ****er for anyone who lays out what ferguson has laid out in such detail. from the pictures he posted i would rate his work as being exceptional. http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6083 "I use .030 wire set pretty hot so it keeps the weld fairly flat and yields great penetration. My welder hates .023 wire. It just won't weld good with it. I overlap each weld bead by 1/3 to 1/2, just to make sure the penetration is good and this also allows me to burn it in a little hotter, since the previous bead is a little proud. I DO NOT go back over the weld with a constant 1" bead. I just make a series of overlapping spot welds in 1" segments, grind down the weld bead leaving it just a few thousandths proud with the edge of a 1/16" cut off wheel in a die grinder and work out the warpage, before moving on the the next series of welds. I have no problems working the mig welds. YES, they are a little tougher to work that TIG or gas welded seams, but not impossible by any means. I think if we took a poll of how many of our TOP PROFESSIONALS here started out using MIG, similar to how I've demonstrated, you'd be overwhelmed. Take everything you've ever learned by reading a book or article that says you CANNOT metalfinish MIG welds and erase it from your mind. I don't read technical books anymore. I read everything I could get my hands on when I first started painting cars 17 years ago, but over the years I've learned that most of what I read is a bunch of hooey. I used to go to Jerry Kennedy for advice on painting. His style of teaching has taught me more than just how to paint. I would go to his shop and ask a batch of questions, but rather than saying, "Here, watch me" he'd tell me to go try this, that, and the other and you'll learn by your mistakes. The same holds true with most anything I've done in life. You just gotta do it to separate fact from fiction. Thanks Jerry." *******s: it does seem to me i'd be much better off using a heavy ******* to start with. you got any recommendations on who makes a heavy one/which one to buy? none of the ones i see here look very heavy and they all look like they are more for finishing: http://www.tinmantech.com/html/*******s_s****s_spikes.php i contacted john kelly and i'm going to buy one of his dvd's. i liked his videos on You Tube and his style! what i really like is how he is more about skill than tools. the tucking approach looks like a very cheap way to shrink if you don't have a power hammer. lead gun: think i'll forget all about the lead gun. i got enough problems without that thing! still not convinced they even worked to begin with. hope you are having a good holiday!
Hey Joe, I remember Ferguson's work from the early days of metalshapers.org...........Randy's come along ways. Yes, as Randy has pointed out, it is possible to metalfinish a mig welded panel. Those of us who learned to weld prior to the introduction of mig welders probably won't be using this method, however. *******s not only shape, but planish metal, and how heavy a one you need is gonna depend on which operation you're doing. A ******* has a larger contact area with a panel, when used ondolly over , say a bumping hammer. This larger area is good for shaping and forming, but a large, heavy ******* would be hard to control and take its toll on your sholder over time. Today, if I needed to replace my *******/s I'd probably build one from a large old file, heated, bent and ground smooth. The ones Tinman sells look good for planisning thin br*** or sheet, but not for general metalwork. Yeah, the lead sprayguns will always remain an '' interesting '' idea! " Meanwhyle, back aboard The Tainted Pork "
Totally agree, it for my mind isn't a very professional job that I sure wouldn't be proud of. Overlapping panels then welding seems a bit rough to me.
Tin man sells both a heavy *******, and a lighter version. Covell used to make a nice, chrome plated, light weight planisher/*******, really good for alum. and final finish on steel. You can also get those "******* files" on Ebay, and Eastwood, for beginners and really roughing out work. I just picked up the DVD by Mindover, about a month ago. Really enjoyed it, learned a few new things, too! Even though I've been "practicing" this stuff for over 30 years. It's very good for beginners, as it shows you the ways to do most things by hand, and without fancy equipment.
maybe i'm wrong and a large, heavy ******* isn't needed at all? i also can't see how a wooden ******* would work better than a metal one. as far as mig on sheet metal, i'm still concerned that the welds are going to be very hard to work even when they are cut way down like ferguson suggests doing with a cut off wheel.
Hey Joe, Too heavy a *******, much like too heavy a hammer will only tire ya out faster, and make it very hard to do controled work. If your hits arn't controled you're probably doing more damage than good The wooden ******* would be more for shaping aluminum, but could be used on light steel sheet, again to shape. A wooden ******* would be about as useless as mule *** for planishing any metal Any time I've ever used the tack and grind ''squirtgun method'' to join panels, I'm ever so glad I learned to weld with a torch before " Life ain't no Disney movie "
The Jalopy Journal
