Protecting yerself when doin customer work, what can ya do?

Trying to find out what my options are sicne I"m working on my first "customer" car right now, and hardcore work will be starting on it in the next few weeks. I want to get something drawn up saying what's going to be done and what I'm to receive for doing it, that way I have signed proof of the agreement. The girl I'm doing it for it a really nice girl, but I'm not so I don't trust the bitch. In the event she tries to not pay me or tries to make me wait a stupid amount of time for payment, what can i do? I know ral business can put liens on cars and stuff, but what are my rights since I'm not a "legit" business as of yet? I figured someone here has been through this before.
My sister in law works for a local law firm so I'm going to get her input on it as well, I need car guys input just as much though. Especially the business owners.

 

I used to restore 65-66 Mustang convertibles for some folks as a sideline job. We had an understanding up front that I would make draws, when I had about $1,000 labor & material in them I asked for the money. If it was not paid in about a week I stopped working. This was back about 1980, they would usually spend about $10 grand on an $8000 car. Finally got burned on one, friend of a friend. Had replaced floors, inner rockers, torque boxes, had collected about $3grand, he quit paying. When I left Houston towed it to the friend that referred him to me's garage. Anyone need a gallon of Wimbeldon white acrylic enamel? Thats all I got for about $1000 owed me.

 

i had a problem with a guy when i was running a body shop out of my garage. he went to the cops cause i would not give him he car back with out payment. they came to my house asked me if i had his car. i told him yes , i said he owes me money for work cop asked him if i did work ,he said yes ,cop said i can keep his car till he pays.


i would now make up some kind of work order and have her sign it just to be safe. make sure it says some where on it "car will not be realesed till payment is rendered in full"

 

Get a good chunk of $$ up front, so if she does not pay, you arent eating all the materials, etc.
In reality, I think either one of you is without much real legal recourse. If youre running this as an under the table deal, with no licenses to stand behind, you really have to go on trust.
If you can get her to sign a detailed work order that says what youre doing, how much and when it has to be paid, then you might have some ammo if it goes to court.

Each state is different though..

 

well the car I'm working on hasn't been registered in a pretty good while, and she has owned the car for a couple of years and has never had it signed into her name. So if she wanted to play that game and I really wanted to be an ass I could get a title for it, I'm pretty sure I could anyway(as much as I would hate getting stuck with a 63 impala SS). I've heard lots of stories about people getting fucked over, and I'll burn the car down before that she gets all this work for free. She's buying the materials as we go, so I'm not worried about anything except my labor when it's done....

 

Have you thought about telling her you gotta be paid every Friday for the work done that week or work stops? Give her written number of hours worked/parts sold to her. that way, she never owes you huge sums and she has proof of progress. You dont get stuck for more than a weeks work and tell her you keep the car until paid. A lawyer left a 56 Chevy 2 dr wagon here and took my money for legal work he never did. So I guess I have a 56 Chevy wagon.

 

Make part of the deal that she will pay for work done by the week.
She stops paying,you stop working,and start charging storage.
That way your never out more than 1 weeks labor.

 

She's not getting charged a large sum at one time, not a LARGE sum at all, I'll get around $1000 for teh job, and it's worth ALOT more than that. Doing this just so people around can see what I'm capable of to drum up some REAL business. she lives an hour away from where I'm at, so I dunno about the once a week deal since she's not down this way that often. I kinda wanted to just get it all at the end of the job, if I just get it bit by bit it'll all be spent very quickly and I plan to use that $$ for a welder and stuff. What exactly should i put in the document I make, and what exactly could I legally do if she doesn't/can't pay up?

 

I'll second the "one week get paid deal". I've worked it this way for years. That way you're only ever into the project for a weeks labor. If she stops paying get so much for storage until the pay starts again. I usually give the customer until the following Tuesday to pay for the previous weeks work. That way they have ample time to get their paycheck cashed/deposited and get your money to you.

Frank

 

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The girl I'm doing it for it a really nice girl, but I'm not so I don't trust the bitch.

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LOL. You must be a real charmer. :

Billy

 

learned a long time ago not to be too nice when doin' stuff for people. The people who were nicest to me were the ones that fucked me the hardest.....don't get me started on that story though, then everyone would know about my mean irish temper...

 

By all means get a greaseboard and put it by the front door of your shop. Sign in when you start work on the car and sign out when you say it's beer time. Bring her in every week to look at the board. The first week will tell you how she's going to be. Then write it down and have her initial it. Sounds like kinda much but trust me that's the only way to go, friends especially included. Been there, been screwed many times. ( especially by so called friends ).
God I'm glad I'm to old to do it anymore.

 

I just thought of something else. You need money for a welder and stuff? Go get a part time job to pay for that stuff and work on your own cars. Wish I woulda done it.

 

I've got a part time job to pay the bills, and with only an old car to drive it sucks up alot fo the cash flow. I have other smaller jobs on cars to do as well to get extra money, this one is just the major job going on, the other ones are just $200-$300 stuff.....I'll be working on the car 5-7 hours a day 4-5 days a week starting later in the month, maybe even a little more. Once i get it on the frame machine and rough out the damaged area of the car things will start moving quick.... I'm scared I'll get done, and she'll be like, "well I don't have all the money yet". I'm getting it done asap so I can move onto the next thing, and I don't have time to wait on someone to get their money right when they should've had it right before they hired me to do the work...

 

I'm gonna tell ya to stick to the $200.00 to $300.00 stuff but I know ya won't do it cause you're just like the rest os us around here. Ya see a big job lot's o bucks but when you're done it's about 50 cents an hour. Good luck.

 

The nice thing about a weekly pay schedule is you keep her from getting in over her head. Good people with good intentions can get in over their head quickly. Just like credit cards, pay as you go and there are no problems.

You can get a mechanics lean for a few hunded dollars and get it titled over to you. Just make sure that the car can be sold for more money than the outstanding bill.

 

switchblade this is in response to your question about how to protect yourself from customers who dont pay..

when I worked at posies back in 96 they had a video camera that they would use to take video of the cars that they were working on.. yours truely starred in some bodywork video from time to time... anyhow each car was video taped and a copy was kept on file to demonstrate just how much time was spent on each car.. (i think dutch may have even sent a copy of each video with the car at the end.. but I am not sure..)

also posies billed each customer each week for every hour of time that a employee spent on each car.. there were several cars in the shop at the time that had hours that cost upwards of 200 PER HOUR ((4 or 5 guys working on one car for 2 or 3 hours at a time!)

anyhow I second the notion that you should get paid each week..

and if you dont have a video camera you could even take still photos which would serve you in two important ways.

#1 you can post photos to us and show us what your capable of.. and you can do the same for potential customers in your area..

#2 should legal recouse become an issue you will have undenyable proof that you did work to her car....

good luck..

sawzall

 

well the BEST way to protect yourself is to just not get involved, but being as you have the sickness, that aint gonna happen.
i suggest you find yourself a pre-printed auto repair work order. make sure the *estimate* is generous, and that the *customer* understand that it is JUST an estimate. try and find a work order with lots of fine print that explains all the stuff you're concerned about (payment, storage, lien, etc.) and if you cant, make sure to write it in. that makes it all official like.
failing that, sit down and dust off your edition on microsoft word 95 and write up an r/o with work to be performed, materials to be used, an estimate of costs, and all conditions associated with repairs and payment. keep reciepts, and keep the customer informed.
if nothing else it gets you in the habit of doing things like a professional.

 

wow, you said your doing that car for $1,000. thats dirt cheap. is that body work all around, plus frame pulling or sheet metal pulls? if you said you under charged be careful. you will proabally get half way thru it and get upset and not want to finish it. cause you have so much labor into and not getting paid what your worth.

the way i do it is half up front the rest when it is done. if the person can't come up with half of it. how are they going to come up with all of it.

take notes when your talking to the customer as to what they want done. give yourself an hourly rate. $20, $30, $40 you know. when you look at the car tell yourself how many hours should it take to fix each dent then multiply it by your hourly rate. undercharging yourself is the first mistake in business.

you have to charge for quality not quick patch jobs. its fine to under charge when you desperately need to pay the rent...good luck

 

Justin:

I've drafted a few contracts (in my former life)... if you want some help/ guidance... drop me a pm and I'll give you my number we can talk about some pitfalls to look out for and I'll be happy to help however I can...

Tim

 

get all cash, dont give a recipet, dont let them take pics of you working on the car or it in near or around your yard or shop. get half the "cash" up front and only do 45 % of the work befor you ask for more cash this makes you the fucker, and not the fuckie.......its hard around here (LI NY) to find anyone who will do anything on an old car, that would kind of give you an upperhand. always remember everyone wants to fuck you. and you'll be OK
FRITZ

 

Fritz, whats the deal with "no pictures" working on the car? Inquiring mind, ya know.

McCray

 

i've always like to do percentages. half up front half when the car is done works. or if you want to give her a break a third up front, a third about a week before it goes in for paint, and the final third upon pick up. that covers your materials and some of your time as you go. i actually like the 1/3's best of all. only thing with that is you pretty much lock yourself into a final price which can screw you alot of times. there's always little shit that you overlooked or when you got into it is much worse than you thaught it was. give yourself some padding in your est. time. you'll need it somewhere down the line trust me. i would do a written est and do some sort of legal mumbo jumbo of car will be held until bill is paid in full/ bill must be paid in full by x days or a daily/weekly storage fee will be applied to the bill. the 1/3's thing works well because you get money to start the project which they better have, you get money to pay for paint supplies and the better have it, you get paid in the end for yourself(there should have been some money for you in those onther payments to if you didn't screw yourself). also you customer is constantly aware where you are at with the car. if you call 'em for drop #2 a week or so before paint then you can say it'll be going to paint in about a week and then there's colorsanding and buffing and what not so add another week(i know it won't take that long but if you do this on the side you gotta give yourself plenty of time). you could tell them at that time they are about 2 weeks out from fully done and final payment. if there is a problem with the intial payment don't do the job. you'll spend to much time fighting to get paid. if they have a problem with the second payment stop work on the car and give 'em a coupla days. after a week storage starts it's also amazing that if you charge asshole type storage rates money shows up real fast. after that if they don't pay the final get a lein on it after x days and you just got yourself a car that they payed to have painted at least until they pay you. as said above the little jobs will make you more money than the big jobs 9 out of 10 times. everyone always wants you to do the work for next to nothing but do a high dollar quality job you can't do both. be nice about it until it's time not to be nice. and another major thing. if your giving this girl the deal of a lifetime just to get your name out i would have a firm understanding with her that she doesn't tell everyone what kinda deal she got. if she does everyone will expect the same deal and if you don't give it to 'em than your a shithead and they'll go bad mouth you to everyone they know. i got myself kinda stuck with this in high school by doing a few paintjobs cheaper than normal and they told a friend and i had to just explain that it was a one time shot. i apinted shit way to cheap anyhow but made good money for a highschool kid. when i got out and worked in a real shop building custom cars that shit went down hill real fast. also stopped painting everything with imron because i got it cheap. i still loved spraying that shit though. haha. in the end the thing to remember most is CYOA. cover your own ass...ken....

 

yeah, I was wodnewring about the "no pictures" thing myself...it makes sense but I don't know why.

As far as how cheap I'm doing it, I'll be working on other jobs here and there while I do this one, I don't have to pay for any materials, All my tools and shop are provided by school. Plus I"m not the least bit greedy, I'm trying to help out a girl that likes old cars and get a little bit of cash at the same time. I basically just love working on old cars, but I don't wanna charge any REAL money until people know exactly what I'm capable of. When the car is completed it'll have alot of locals knocking down my door....but I might be moving in january, so the advertising wouldn't be worth a damn then. At least I'll have pics.....

We've had the discussion about her not telling anyone what's she's being charged. I told her when it's done I'll give her a price to tell people she paid. Like i said, she has no title yet, so if gets on my badside....I can make a helluva molotov....

 

get a good some of money up front, mainly to pay for materials and needed items. If the price is not too high, get 1/2 of it up front.

dont do trade deals or favors, only do work that is under the agreement. The last few I have done, and put in extra work/time ended up my ass as a loss.

never again I say. F*ck favors or adds unless they pay. Its not worth it...Period, you always end up at the wrong end of the stick...if its not jammed up your ass first.

Example: I did a friend car, full body work, blocked 2 times, numerous custom mods (shaved parking lights, tail section), pulled numerous dent and dings, Engine comparment custom work and gave him some rare parts for cash...prob. $2k in work total (labor and materials)...It came time to paint the car and he blew off the painter (the painter chewed my ass in a HUGE way because he lost money that weekend because of my so-called buddies car being scheduled for paint, and the painter turned away work because of it that weekend.) because he was missing one part, and the parts I gave him (which were so rare) were pieces of crap and not worth what they are. (those rare pieces of crap where his from the beginning of the deal, he wanted them back) Basically, Im out...I felt like I was paying to have the car done...never again...

 

Weekender.
Geeezzz I hate to be a dick. But the people around here (you know how new yorkers are) will do anything to get out of paying full price. a guy i did work for took pics of me working on his car for his "scrap book" Hummmm well im ok with that. ya know. he paid me what we had agreed on and left 3 months later I have to show up in small claims court because his "friend" said he could have done it for cheeper and he felt the job wasnt worth what he had paid. The judge ask'd him if he had a recipt and i knew he didnt he said no sir but i do have photos to prove he did the job. so basicly the guy fucked me over. Thats why i am a hard nose. one asshole makes it stink for everyone. I hope i dont come off as an ass, but i do know what its like to try and make some side cash only to have some yuppie fucker try and bend ya over.
FRITZ

 

[ QUOTE ]
Justin:

I've drafted a few contracts (in my former life)... if you want some help/ guidance... drop me a pm and I'll give you my number we can talk about some pitfalls to look out for and I'll be happy to help however I can...

Tim

[/ QUOTE ] The idea of a forum is that when someone can posts a question, we all benefit from the answer.

 

thanks for the info guys.....I'll get something figured out this week....

 

Son,, You've got a lot of advice from a lot of dude's what's been there done that. All of it good I might add.
But we know you'll do it anyway and get stuck. As the old saying goes, ya got to get bit by the dog before ya know it hurts. I want ya to know you are not the only one that learned the hard way. Good luck to ya. Cad.

 

[ QUOTE ]
But we know you'll do it anyway and get stuck. As the old saying goes, ya got to get bit by the dog before ya know it hurts. I want ya to know you are not the only one that learned the hard way. Good luck to ya.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep.

Materials and parts are paid by the cutomer. Pics are emailed daily (they need to see the progress), and a total for labor is given on Friday (each customer is different, some want a itemized blow by blow receipt, others just want the jist of it). I expect to get paid by Tuesday or I stop working, keep charging for storage though...

Everything above the table, tax guy gets whatever they need. You need to be a real shop and run it that way. No trading, no "deals".

You really need to learn how to hang on to your money. If you can't save to buy a new tool or piece of equipment, your probably not going to do well running your own business.

Some things to think about anyway.