Protecting you engine from ethanol

Seems like there are two issues here.

1. cars that never ran ethanol, putting a blend in and having driveability problems.

2. longer term effects of the solvent (dissolving) of materials in the fuel system.


issue one seems to be due to gums and varnishes which are cleaned out of the system in one big flush, only to clog up jets and bleeds. hence the additive in the example above by tfeverfred correcting the problem.

I don't know much about issue two but I suspect that since the ethanol is craving an ionic exchange that there might be a simple way to provide those ions for it. ocean going ships use sacrificial zinc anodes to prevent hull corrosion. I would imagine a solution along these lines might help those whose carbs are melting like the wicked witch. <- this might bring about another pollution issue but for lower mile driven cars it might not be so bad. Isnt there oils and stuff with zinc in it anyway? Someone else can continue this thought I guess.

 

www.goldeagle.co/brands/stabil/default.aspx

You've heard of Sta-Bil for storing gasoline for a prolonged period. The same outfit has developed an additive to protect engine systems from ethanol. Also, go to the very bottom of that first page and click on the link that says Ethanol White Paper. Very interesting, just facts, not hysterical internet opinionators.

Those opinionators are excitedly telling us that small engine shops are seeing a load of fuel-related problems. I was a mechanic in a small engine shop decades ago, before there was gasohol, and even then a good 80% of problems were fuel-related, caused by owner ignorance, filling their tanks with two year old gas that had been sitting in their shed, etc.. The opinionators also want us to know that marinas are also seeing a ton of fuel-related trouble. Well, I worked in an outboard motor shop, again long before there was any gasohol, and it was the same story. Gasohol mostly makes bad fueling practices cause trouble sooner than otherwise. Sure, there are some special problems, but there always are when there is a change-over to a new technology. Whether we like it or not, we're stuck with it, but we can adapt.

The fuel tank in your elderly vehicle has all kinds of goo and glop glued to its inner surfaces. Ethanol can un-glue this stuff, and as I learned, pass it through a brand new fuel filter. Take the tank out of the car and let it sit overnight in the machine shop's caustic soda hot-tank as I did, or get it steam-cleaned (do the hard-lines, too). When it's dry, treat it with a 2-step rust remover and fixer. You only have to do all this once; the gasohol will keep tank and lines clean from then on. Add the Sta-Bil Ethanol Treatment . . . or at least a smidgin of some synthetic 2-stroke oil, to coat the tank with an oil film to prevent rust.

Top off the tank to minimize condensation if you're not driving the car for a while. Gasohol in your tank will not "pull water right out of the air" to any great extent, but it sure will absorb the condensation off the inner walls of a half-empty tank. And that's a GOOD thing, because absorbed in the ethanol, that water goes harmlessly through the engine instead of accumulating in the bottom of the tank. Auto parts stores back in my day used to sell alcohol-based "gas-driers' for exactly this purpose; today we are told this is a disaster. (For that matter, auto parts stores also used to sell "top cylinder lubes," a local one being Bardahl, that did the same things as my skosh of 2-stroke oil).

Ethanol does slowly degrade standard neoprene fuel lines, with little chunks of the inner surface breaking off. You could go with the expensive Teflon-lined hose racers use, or just replace your ordinary soft lines every five years.

If you can't find gasohol-resistant fuel pump and carb/injection components, get that Sta-Bil Ethanol Treatment.

I have a low opinion of the way the government and the lobbies have handled this, with little net savings of petroleum on one hand while poor folk in 3rd World countries go hungry because of huge increases in corn prices. If it had to be done, it could have been done a lot better. But they aren't going to change for any amount of bitching we do, and meanwhile, I think we can adapt without any huge inconvenience.

 

It is all e10 here, no choice, at-least anywhere near me (unless you want e85, or spendy race fuel). No trouble, so far, but then again, of the vehicles that I have that run gasoline, all are tuned with a Oxygen sensor, for the fuel that they are running.

They were all built or retrofit with fluroelastomer fuel hoses. By the way, for those playing at home, the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio for e10 is 14.12:1. It is 9.78:1 for e85. Straight ethanol is 9:1. Each as compared to 14.7:1 for straight gasoline.

Adapt or die.

 

I alway run a zinc additive (or "break in" lube) in my own cars whether the engine is new or has 200,000 miles. (ZDDP, Red Line break in oil, RED STP, GM EOS, ETC.) Flat tapped engines need the zinc/lead to as a sacrificial coating on the valve train and bearings. Much like the lead in the old gas did for the valve seats, it also helped cool down the valves so that they didn't warp due to the low octane fuels of the day creating detonation. We are back to this problem in a way, only it's that coupled with the caustic properties of the corn alcohol they are shoving down our carbs. It's forcing our engines to "consume" their own fuel systems and valvetrains. Not the right type of sacrificial coating if you ask me.



The bottom line is this: You can wish in one hand and shit in the other, this problem is real and it's up to us to think of a way around it if we still want to drive rods and customs in the future.

 

I pulled the carb off my ford, a '65 carb, and it looked brand new inside. I found no signs is any deteriation or corrision after how many years of ethanol gas. Problem with rubber maybe but metal......

 

Not around it, but WITH it. You can call it a problem, or an opportunity.

Resisting change may only serve to get out hobby outlawed.

 

We don't have to resist, we just have to stay one step ahead.

If the problem with it eroding the metal is as bad as they say it is, then there will be huge issues with all the old steel storage tanks at gas stations around the country and there will be some "things" start happening. It's time for us to use one of the few rights we have LEFT and assemble peacefully to come up with a solution to this problem to protect our way of life.

REMEMBER: THE CAR IS THE ONLY TRUE AMERICAN ART FORM. WITHOUT IT, THIS COUNTRY MEANS NOTHING...THINK ABOUT IT.

 

X3 for me

 

We've had e-10 for decades, I haven't noticed a problem.

I even ran e-85 through my 67 Buick 340 (holley carb) in my jeepster for an entire year. Still looks good when I switched back to dino juce.

IMHO I think the troubles people are seeing are caused by MOISTURE. I'm in the high desert NE Colorado where it's rather dry.

 

I've got a couple of small blocks, ZZ3, ZZ4 and a Big Block 502/502. They are in two wheeled vehicles where you are literally riding the engine and perfectly aware of how they run. They run fine on 10% ethanol BUT DON'T LET THEM SIT! All of them have very low mileage. They have Eddlebrock carbs and when the engines don't start with fresh fuel in them I pull the carbs apart and find crud in them. Looks like the same crud you get in house plumbing pipes.

 

All I can say is; Damn I HATE the government.

 

Too bad any vote either way never changes a damn thing.
Open up wide... your check book, I mean.
That's all we really are good for to our masters.

 

Votes don't work ...Tar and feathers do..... Hahahahahahaha

 

I suspect that many of the issues come from cars that have a lot of hours on them running the old fuel and may have tanks that are getting "cleaned" by the ethanol.

For what it's worth, I'm a chemist, so I'm speaking with a certain "degree" of knowledge. (lab humor)

Ethanol is an excellent solvent and will put much of the old crap/gunk in your tank into solution and then shoot it down the line to your carb. When that fuel/gunk solution is vaporized in the carb, some of the solutes will come back out of solution and you'll get that same gunk in your carb.

Ethanol WILL dissolve the old formula rubber fuel lines, but the dirty secret is that the non-ethanol gasoline will too. It's just the ethanol does this much, much faster. Do yourself a favor and replace your old rubber line with the multi-fuel stuff.

I'm trying to attack this issue from a strictly fact-based point of view.

(One last little bit of theory: if my thinking is correct, it could be possible to have an old car with an original fuel system that was never allowed to get dirty and therefore, might not be having issues with dissolved solids. This might explain some of the old stuff that is running around with no problems.) I'd still replace the rubber fuel line on such a car, but I'd do that regardless on anything with some age on it.

 

i went from E10 fuel to E85 when i ran into detonation issues when turning up the boost in my car.


Ethanol has some great features (cold, lots of fuel can be pushed into the cylinder, makes GREAT power when tuned and compressed), but also has negative features (hard to start cold, seperates from gasoline, using food source to make fuel etc)



in my experience in the last 10 years of working on BMW's, is that ethanol WILL seperate from gasoline and collect the condensation inside the tank in high humidity areas like Houston- it sinks to the bottom and is the first suck of junk the engine gets= rough cold start...... especially when these BMW engines are run off of VALVE LIFT, rather than a throttle...... its REALLY hard to make an engine run smoothly when you have it literally choked off at .8mm valve lift, and you are squirting some watery crap into a cylinder lol


when i swapped, i had to change out 2-3 barry grant fuel filters due to the goo/junk being "let loose" by the ethanol cleaning it out. it even clogged my pre filters on my pumps in the tank. now im over the clogging issue i hope i dont have to do it again.

ethanol will also clean the HELL out of the cylinders and valves.


i use lucas Ethanol fuel treatment in my turbo car.

 

All I know is that I'm not going to drive my car until I re jet the carb, back the timing off a little bit and flush the tank out to make sure it's clean.

 

Wow some bad info here! Some pretty good info though to. I've ran it since the early 90's in everything (10%) at first yeah we changed alot of filters, after that ZERO fuel related problems. We still put additives in the snowmobiles and motorcycles and in our 20 plus antique tractors, items that sit for extended Periods. if your having troubles, guarantee it's from the left overs of the old fuels. Our flex fuel f 150's running E-85 drop a little mileage, so cost savings are pretty much a wash, but buying ethanol is like writing ourselves a check and starving out the oil guys.

 

Thankl you, especially the comment about "left overs of the old fuels". You know of what you speak.

 

One thing left out here.....it costs us 47 cents/ gallon EXTRA to have ethonol put in our gas....and I get worse gas milage...and I have to drive further to a station that does not have ethonol...and I have to purchase PREMIUM gas that costs me even more.

The argument that we import less because of ethonol is no reason...I think all of our Alaska petrolum goes straight to Japan.

Isn't it odd that the guys from Iowa and surrounding states have no problem ($$$$) with running ethonol in their cars where most of the supply of corn that goes into making ethonol is grown...huuummmmm......

Okay western state guys....hand over some of the corn dough....

 

Guys, really? Can the politics. It does not belong here.

 

This is true. I'm guilty of it too, this thread has gone from a valid discussion into political babble. It's ran it's course.

 

YEP, we just rake in the cash, fill em up boys, I need a new pickup!

The thing is, we don't make that much off the deal, there's a premium paid on a per bushel basis, more then half that gets burnt up in trucking, time in the lines ect. Some of the plants you have to own shares to haul grain there, and then you have to deliver a set amount. So say mother nature wipes you out, guess what- the plant don't want money to buy out your contracts- they want corn!!! So then you get to go buy it at the elevator and haul it to the plant to fill your contract- how much you think a guy would make doing that?
Most of the plants don't make money on the ethanol-- they make it off the distillers grain being sold to the livestock guys, which is the bye product of the ethanol production.
So before you say we like it because we are making money off it. Realize we've been running it for 20 plus years, think there's anything to that?

And the marine use-- my SBF powered boat runs fine year in year out, my co-workers and buddies fishing boats are the same. My snowmobile don't have a problem either- and thats in a very high moisture environment, PLUS it's all aluminum- so according to some that thing should be a melted pile of Gooo on my shop floor.

 

Count me in as one of the ones running 10 - 15% for the last 25 years or so with no negative reactions. That's all we have had out here for years now in the name of clean air. I don't personally own a car newer that 40 years old either, never have, never will. I would much prefer having straight gasoline, but in my area, that just isn't in the cards. I also drive my hot rod lots from state to state every year with absolutely no evil effects going back and forth. The sky isn't falling, I promise.

 

I huffed ethanol a while back. A month later, I grew a tail, my dog started quoting Vonegutt, my house won the bronze in the 100 meter butterfly at the Bejing Olympics, and an alien shit in my bathtub. 'nuff said.

 

Damn, same thing happened to me, except my house took the Sliver medal.

 

Yeah...knowledge and truth has no place when talking about our hobby.

 

I took the winter-dormant Tri-Power 250 out in the unusual warm weather the other day. Cranked and pedaled' the carbs to get some fuel in the no-choke mod'd 1904's and it fired up as usual. Carefully warmed up the 250 and let the cold gear oils stir on a short backroad cruise. Back in the driveway I smelled gas and immendiately shut it down. The rear carb was dumping gas out of the glass float chamber onto exhaust headers - hssss, hssss, hsss!. :shock: the front carb was dripping slowly as well. After cooling down, (and calming down), I started assessing the problem. Initially I considered the cold as probably shrinking the carb gaskets.

After disassembling rear carb I have other concern to share: The leaking carbs had both been freshened using my preferred stock of cork/composition glass bowl gaskets. The gasket had deteriorated to crumbs where exposed to fuel. I now assume the solvent nature of alcohol in current fuel or additives as cause. I had an unused 'jiffy kit" hard composition gasket left over ,(I had sealing problems in past with this type on 1904's), and coated both sides with copper spray and installed / tested OK for leaks.

I just ordered two more "jiffy kits" for the hard composition gaskets but now concerned about related problems with all my old cars. I still have a stack of my cork/composition "preferred" 1904 bowl gaskets and will soak one in some modern gas to see if assumption is correct :hmmm: .







' Still haven't fingered main alcohol in gas question: ... do I still need gas line anti-freeze ( HEET!) ?

Have Fun

 

10% isn't going to damage much and ethanol is way less corrosive then methanol to start with.

We have been running 10% E in our fuel here in good old Missouri since the '80s and in the '90s it became nearly impossible to get fuel without it.

You don't have to run anything more than hard seats to protect your valves, the new cars don't have anything that you can't buy in the store.
Once they took the lead out of gas the valve cushioning was lost.

You don't need a formula to jet your carb. If you can read your plugs and jet a carb you can jet with what you get at the pump. You set your float they way you have always set your float 10% won't effect it enough to make it flood, if it is flooding lower your float a bit and if it is starving raise it. Mechanics 101.

No doubt one should use modern fuel line, the additives that we get for summer etc are as hard on rubber as alcohol would be. No doubt that one should run alcohol resistant accelerator pumps as well.

Is the fuel eating our fuel tanks? No more than it ever was, condensation has been eating our fuel tanks for 70 years give or take. The trick is to keep your tank full not empty. if you are going to let it set fill it and dump it full of fuel stabilizer. You want to keep the air away from the metal.

@ 10% you will not have a catastrophic failures that ExWest racer has running methanol for instance. There are some precautions one should take but it is not anything extreme at this point. Get in your damned car and drive it.

 

I opened up the tri-power's other 1904's and found the softer cork/ composition(rubber?), gaskets for glass bowl were disintegrating- not the cork but probable rubber in the Traditional style gaskets and accel pump diaphragms. Current 1904 "refurb" kits have cardboard(?) bowl gasket but black (rubber/neoprene?) accel& PV diaphragms .

Have fun

Do I sill need Dri-Gas ???

 

Yeah, it's all a big joke. Nobody cares about keeping their cars going. It's all about supporting our communist Muslims in the white house and bending to their will. We should all get rid of our hot rods and dive Daewoo's and Yugo's like they want us too.