Purpose-Built Autocross Hot Rod ?????

Brandon, I have had a photo of your car stashed for years, but never knew who's car it was (nor can I remember where I "liberated" the image). I just love the way it looks, especially with the high turtle deck. Duffy's 184 is also one of my favorite little race cars. Do you have more images? Later, Gary

 

I think OP first has to decide whether he wants to run tires that work, or will limit himself to trad tires. Your Buckshot car has a lot of body roll in that pic, and I'm sure the tires were screeching in every turn too...

I also think that Hotrod build car is pretty cool even if the rolling stock is not liked on here.

 

Has anyone seen the roadster pick up built by Troy Lad. One of my current favorites. I have the issue of Hot Rod but no pics on the computer.

 

Your right. That RPU was built for the La Carerra Panamerica. Good idea and traditional themed!

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_1005_tube_chassis_1931_roadster_pickup/index.html



The-Rodster (Our original poster) where are you leaning. If these ideas are not helpful, what is your minds-eye focused at?

 

this car would be bout perfect cept it would push like a mofo and blow the rear tires off with the hemi, btw anybody know what kinda wheels and tires are on this car ?

 

Having owned both a Super Seven and a Track T, I think this coud be a very successful combination. I think it's possible, though, to make even a traditional hot rod work well with appropriate attention to tires, roll control, and c/g.

The elements that would make a good autocross car are at odds with the traditional hot rod aesthetic: wide, sticky front tires (and modestly sized rears), and some restraint in the engine choice to keep the weight distribution optimized. An aluminum BOP or a SBF would be good choices; likewise a strong 4-banger.

The car in the OP has IFS and similar-sized tires front and rear. These may help the cause, although I really question whether IFS makes a big difference on a typical pool-table-smooth autocross course.

I imagine that Metalshapes, with his combination of hot rod & road race experience, could be the king of this kind of competition if he chose to. Alex, have you considered entering your roadster in one of the GG autocrosses?

I don't know if Cotton Werksman actually used his roadster(s) in any kind of twisty competition, but the appearance of his stuff would indicate that he had an interest in it.

 

He only beat me by a few hundredths last year and would have lost this year but i wrecked the car on the way down.

*edit* I am not being malicious, Lowell is a funny guy and talks a LOT of shit for an old dude. I am pretty sure he was letting air out of my tires last year. HA! *edit*

The superbell axle in aluminum is awesome but with 235's on the front and good brakes it started to "dance". I now have a So Cal axle that I bent to gain some negative camber, 1 degree or so.

quicker steering helps to. magnum steering arms are 5/8" shorter than the super bell ones and i run a jeep tie rod that speeds it up even more. i am 2 1/2 turns lock to lock right now and it manageable with a 16" '40 style wheel even with the 235's on the front. Shocks are also extremely important, way more so than springs. I bent the qa1's in the accident so now I switched to double adjustable afco's.

In all reality it still breaks down like this, 40% tire, 40% driver, 20% car.

I am going to read the rest of the thread now.

Oh yeah factory five cars are ugly and so are lotuses (loti?)

 

Dude, my feelings are so hurt....boo, hoo...

I've got a homebuilt Lotus Seven lookalike that could probably take on that deuce, but Sevens are technically 1957 and later. A Lotus Six would fit a pre 55 class and could be built around a ford front axle or a tube axle. I would use coilovers, a four bar and a panhard to locate it though. Roll centers would be harder with a transverse leaf.





No need for big fat sticky tires either. These things only weigh less than 1000lbs. Imagine one with a bike engine in it!

 

You don't need to shift, put it in first and bounce off of the rev limiter if you need to. Shifting takes too much time, even if you "dontlifttoshift" HA!

And it is fun, I tell everyone it is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

 

Yeah, I have thought about it.

 

Here are a few pics of my car at a SCCA autocross in Joliet. This was before some asshat cut me off and drove me into the median and ruined my new wheels and the whole front end. I ran it all last year with steelies and relatively skinny radials.

http://ridetechgarage.com/2010/05/donny-freise’s-32-ford-roadster/

 

1930s style Austin 7 racers:

 

Some time ago, I tried to start a thread that would have proposed a "HAMB-ster" type or class of single seat hot rod. Naturally, it was shot down pretty fast. You can read the burning remains of that thread here. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=436363

I suppose I didn't think it thru quite enough, but it seemed like a fun idea at the time. The inspiration for that thread was all the images and posts I've seen on the HAMB - from Bo-Jones type modifieds, to modifieds running on the flats, and of course single seat oval racers - most with the driver straddling the drive line! With regards to this thread now, I don't see much difference between that proposal and a purpose-built, "traditional" auto-crosser - other than perhaps two seaters. And, as I don't think much of trailered auto-crosser "ringers" showing up at events either, I also think they should be streetable (ie, pass a speed bump test). And pass it on "low" if air ride equipped.

In essence, a HAMB-ster / auto-crosser would be a bare minimum car and ultra light weight... a 4-wheeled motorcycle. A designer / engineer's fun machine. Light weight components and drive trains. No roof / no luggage. If you wanted to make them more like a practical car, you could run a two seater (flash back to the days of riding mechanics), add a top or build a narrowed coupe. You could have fenders / bed / boot or trailer hitch if desired After all, even motorcyclists realize after a couple of long trips that they really need fenders and saddle bags to carry foul weather gear or or a few tools / spares, too. Roll bars might be a good idea. Disc brakes allowed?

On the auto-crosser side of the HAMB-ster, wouldn't it be possible to build a traditional styled chassis (no Lotus 7 stuff or IFS/IRS, please) that would use two types of wheels and tires? The auto-crosser / sports rod combo of rims and tires would use small diameter wheels with contemporary tires just wide enough (not crazy wide) to get the job done given the car's size and weight. This set of rims and tires would not make the car so low it would become un-streetable - speed bump transits required. Then, by slapping a set of traditional styled wheels and tires,you would get the proper "look" of a vintage race car which normally sat several inches higher anyway. I think something like this would still provide a wide open problem for engineers (like under slung chassis?) but result in cool little rides being built that are more roadworthy. Do we rule out diesel / motorcycle or other out of the box engines? How about having the driver in front of the engine (like belly tankers or some of those sidewinder T drag cars from back when?).

I suppose the ideal car would just be a streetable midget or sprint car for the seriously competitive, but something that looks more like a race car from the 30-60's might be better, eh? Like the Legion Special? Two seaters would be no bigger than track roadsters or modifieds are these days.

Some, but not certainly all ideas in photos. My 2 cents. Later, Gary

 

I resemble that remark!



I've always liked the way they look, but they're definitely an acquired taste.

 

Is that the same car I'm thinking of from way back when I first met you and James?

 

Do it!

 

May we see your suspension setup... please?

(I've only stared at the roof of that car in the past...)

 

This is pretty much the idea behind the way I'm building Roofus.

It is loosely based on a Lotus style chassis, but disguised as a 20's-30's grand prix car.

It will have more 1x1 tubework forward of the firewall (inner framerails), through the center of the car(trans tunnel) and cross car in the cowl area (truss from firewall to the dash).

I really didn't plan for it being a serious autocrosser. If I did, I would ditch the big fat pig of a motor and go with a 4 cylinder.



Here's the build thread.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=339315&highlight=roofus

 

That is the EXACT formula that led to the creation of the Lotus 7 and its kind!
A Lotus 7 is nothing more than a "Modified" that has the required build design to do the job required of it. Nothing more...nothing less.
A Model T body might be Traditional for a Modified but if you put too many limitations on whats under that body the end vehicle will not be as capable as you would like it to be.
No good bringing a knife to a gun fight...

I can see what your trying for but its not logical to limit the capability of a vehicle in open competition by requiring it to have inferior parts in the interest of "looks".
EG: A space frame style chassis is far lighter/stiffer than a regular ladder frame...yet still Traditional.
A ladder frame as Traditional is street use in most cases, unless the rules for a particular class of competition require it.

What I'm getting at is simple.

What we now consider the Traditional "Performance Hot Rods" were created by the imagination of the original builders in the pursuit of a certain goal.
Street Hot Rod builders liked what they saw on the tracks/Lakes/strips and did their best to copy it in their homebuilt cars.

A style was born...be it Bonneville, dirt track, dry lakes, Drag racing.
BUT...the builders being copied were NOT held back in their imagination and efforts by that style.

They ALTERED and MOLDED the "style" as required for a competitive edge and it followed them!

This proposed Autocross car is for all intents a Race car.
Build it. Race it.
Make it appear as Traditional as possible without compromising its abilities in the quest of style...

 

I was at craftyb's for coffee with the track roadster pickup a week ago last Friday. A guy showed up there with a TR-6A roadster autocross car with a crossflow Ford 4 banger (not a 2.3 Pinto/Mustang). He was asking me if I had ever autocrosssed my roadster. Had to admit I hadn't autocrossed since the early 70's when I had a set-up '62 Vette. I guess I didn't know there was anything of the nature still happening in Western Michigan. The next event put on by the Furrin Group out of Grand Rapids is having one at US131 Martin Dragway on 6/28 I believe.

Bottom line I believe I'm gonna take a shot with mine - just for shits and grins.

Charlie

 

Bill,
I certainly see your point. I was just thinking light, fast and traditional. A one seat car that combines all the basic elements of many - from oval trackers / lakes modifieds / hot rod modifieds / cut down or bug dragsers / or road racers. Just a proposal... something to think about.

One of the reasons I first thought of the HAMB-ster proposed my previous thread was the idea that 6-8 of these little buzz bombs rolling together like a pack of motorcyclists would just be a giant hoot. And get motorcycle like mpg. Ideally each one would be so small you could fit two of them in one garage space - you could make several, one for the spouse and even for some of the kids. If you do a race style car, it would be too low to run on the roads and the HAMB police would be all over you for your new-fangled parts and designs. And the inevitable hot rod motor would take the mpg way down. Let's see what other ideas are out there. Gary

 

The only thing cooler than seeing that car in person, would be to see it run the auto cross. Man that's cool.

 

looks like Goodyear bluestreaks - Race tires early 70 time frame
Rims, not sure

I used a set of these on my car back in the early 70's they did'nt last long but they looked cool.

 

This car deserves the title: "Track sold separately"


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Back in '71, Bay Area Roadsters member Gil Ferreira ruled NSRA's Streetkhana "Under 95 inch wheel base" category with his "VolksRod":


photo from the R&C Archives


... but (even with its dorky Appliance "Wire Mag" rims) I'll have to admit that my favorite "Autocross Hot Rod" of all-time has to be John Callies' 303ci Pontiac-powered 1937 Simca Cinq:


click thumbnails to view the Oct '74 HOT ROD Magazine article


The "#303 Simca" was the big crowd pleaser of the "STREETKHANA" and the "GO-WHOA" events held in conjunction with the '74 & '75 West Coast Street Rod Mini Nationals (in Lodi, CA).

I've looked all over for my father's photographs of #303 in action ... but haven't found them ... yet!

 

I beam front, 9" rear ( with cut bones and '36 radius rods ), '50s F100 steering and front brakes, Koni's, and a low mounted Panhard bar in the back.
600X16 and 750X16 Firestone bias ply's.

More info here...
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331971&highlight=unibody+roadster

 

Haha,
That is pretty much what I am hoping to build eventually, but with an A model.
The hardest part is the front wheel drive IFS, but I just about now have that all figured out.
I would use pretty much standard Jaguar IRS at the back.

I was actually banned from an off road Forum only a few days ago for asking about splines and front drive shafts.
They know I am not a crazy off roader, and just got sick of my continual questions, which I can sort of understand.
But even though now banned from that Forum, one worthy poster told me exactly what I wanted to know, so right now I am pretty happy.

My efforts at suggesting how to build a good looking and really good handling hot rod IFS, (but without the front diff and drive bits) also had all my relevant posts deleted from a thread in the Oz Rodder Forum.
Another guy on the same thread with some really good ideas had all his posts deleted as well.
His hot rod front end is now a commercially available product, and my own will never appear on that Forum when it is all eventually completed.

It is the Forum members that are missing out at the whim of some moderator.

Still a long way to go, but I now know exactly how to do it.
Just need to source the parts that I have already measured up and identified.
And a suspension software design package to get the pickup points exactly right.
It will all slowly come together as I can afford to do it.

 

With all this talk of 4WD, we forgot to mention the Quad deuce, eh? Who has that now, Summit? Gary

 

Yeah, 4WD rods are pretty thin on the ground, but there have been a few of them here and there over the years.

A street rod is always going to be rather front heavy, and 4WD is a great way to put the power down, especially in a fairly light vehicle.
With attention to detail, and some serious suspension development it could be made to handle very well if the centre of gravity is kept low enough.