Hi Guys, I have a questions and some thoughts about quick-change rear axles. First some background on where this is coming from and heading towards… I have a 47 Ford Tonner pick-up project truck that I am in the “gathering parts for” stage. These trucks, up to 1947 have a unique wheel bolt pattern 5-lugs on a 6-inch bolt circle. I have found only one other vehicle on this planet that also used this bolt pattern, an early 70’s Aston-Martin V8. I don’t think I would have much luck trying to find any wheel, hub or brake parts off of one those to try and update anything on my truck. So I want to change up the wheel bolt pattern on the front hubs and the rear axle to something with a more common wheel bolt pattern. I could go 5 on 4-1/2 or 5 on 5-1/2. I have a lot of options in the 5 on 5-1/2 pattern. But there is one more wheel bolt pattern option that I am leaning towards. The old Wide 5 bolt pattern. Why Wide 5? Well, no real good reason other than I like the looks on race cars old and new. And modern circle track race cars run the wide 5 pattern with the aluminum hubs and disc brakes. And used race car parts like these can be budget friendly, especially if you live in an area surrounded by local dirt tracks. And I have a deal on a complete retired dirt late model chassis in the works. More thinking… the Wide 5 bolt pattern originated on mid to late thirties Ford cars and trucks. The trucks had full floater rear ends, and that spindle style/size is still used on today’s Wide 5 racing hubs. Since my 47 Tonner has the old Timken full floating rear end, the late model dirt track Wide 5 hubs might slip right onto my spindles. Instant wheel bolt pattern upgrade and disc brakes. Ford used that spindle size for a long time. Like on F250 Dana 60 rear ends from 48 up into at least the seventies. As a note I have played with putting Wide 5 hubs on other applications such as a Dana 60 front axle. It turns out, the original Wide 5 hubs have an 8-bolt drive flange, that is the same 8-bolt pattern as some Ford Dana 60 rears and 70’s-80’s Dodge Dana 60 front axle lock-out hubs… And up until about 20 years ago or so, the Wide 5 racing hubs still used that same 8-bolt drive flange pattern. Which is the same 8-bolt pattern as the Ford full floating rear end axle flanges. So in theory if the late model Wide 5 hubs were to fit on my full floating Timken rear axle, the drive flange on the axle shafts might bolt right back up to the Wide 5 hubs. And there are other drive flange options out there as well depending on what I may need for axle splines etc. Also mixed in with the whole Wide 5 hub history, the Timken rear axles which are a clamshell style housing were the foundation of the quick-change rear axles. People would take two of the rear axle housing bells that do not house the pinion gear and bearings, and bolt them up to a quick- change center section to build quick-change rear axles. I do not necessarily want to keep the Timken rear axle in my truck due to limited gear ratio and differential choices etc. But parts of it could stay... To throw more fuel on this fire, I have an opportunity to scoop up a complete rolling dirt track late model chassis, that is in really nice shape but pretty well outdated and obsolete for competitive racing, complete minus the motor and*******. This is an absolutely complete rolling chassis with a Winters quick change rear end and Wilwood Wide 5 hubs. Now the way the rear suspension is setup in the late model dirt cars kind of makes these rear ends not really useful in most rear-wheel-drive suspensions. It is a really free-floating axle suspension system. The late model dirt track cars have aluminum axle tubes that are kind of pinned into the axle housing bells that bolt to the quick-change center section, then a device called a bird cage slips over the axle tubes and that can rotate freely around the axle tube, that is where the control arms and coil over shocks mount for the 4-link style suspension. Heck, even the brake caliper mount spins on the axle tube. And then there is a torque link that bolts to the quick-change center section that runs way forward in the chassis, that controls axle wrap. So if you were to try mounting one of these dirt late model quick change rear ends with some sort of conventional style rear suspension, like leaf springs and u-bolts, a good heavy application of right foot on the skinny pedal would likely spin the axle tubes right out of the rear end housing resulting in a mess of busted driveline junk. I plan on sticking with parallel leaf spring style rear suspension in my truck, for simplicity. But… What if throughout the history of quick-change rear axle development, they have maintained the original clamshell housing bolt patterns where the axle housing bells bolt to each other or to a quick-change center section? And… what are the chances that the width of the modern late model quick-change center section is still sized so that two of the old original Timken housing bells still bolt onto each side and all the internal geometry is still correct inside for the differential? Would I then be able to at least use the Winters quick-change center section with my old 47 Tonner axle housing tubes? And have the Wilwood Wide 5 hubs and disc brakes in the rear of my truck? I do not necessarily want or need a quick change rear end in my truck, but if this all works, sure! Why not? It would look way racier than what the truck may actually be. Does anybody on here have that depth of knowledge about the history and development of the quick-change rear axles? I know I will have to mess around with axle splines etc to get the new to match up with old. I may have to find some magic combination of the right years of parts etc. Is there anything I am missing that would make this combination of old and new not work? I know I simplified some of the details on the Timken to quick-change progression but the theory is there. As a back up rear axle option an old Ford F250 Dana 60 rear axle would still be able to run at least the Wide 5 hubs and brakes. But if I really want to find out I may just have to acquire all the pieces and find out for myself. This could be a pretty interesting rear end to see under the rear of a rusty old Ford truck. Thanks for reading.
I have a Frankland quickchange going into my Falcon using 9 inch tube ends and a 4 link/4bar rear suspension (gasp). Ive never heard of them spinning the center off the tubes. Mine was in a dirt track car, but prior to that it was in a funny car. If anyone's actually witnessed or seen the aftermath of spinning the center, i'd like to hear about it. In all my looking for info on my project, i've never come across that issue. Not saying it hasn't happened, but there's a lot of them out there, and no one's mentioned it that i've seen. Typically, the issue is the pinion support "fin" in the center can break, but people just keep running them even afterwards, lol. -rick
You should be able to slide on a pair of Safety Racing hubs and use your original brakes on the rear. For the front, you would need some bolt on snouts, and do the same in the front. This rear has a Halibrand center with stock Timken axle housings, I replaced the axle tubes. It has Safety Racing hubs, that can be found.
Hi 69fury, Sorry I did not mean to scare anyone, what I was talking about, is on the dirt later model roundie round cars, the entire rear axle housing is aluminum. Cast aluminum quick change center, aluminum bells and aluminum axle tubes. All bolted together. The aluminum axle tubes are replaceable, they press into the bells and are then also kind of pinned too. The big round bolt pattern where the bells attach to the center section is big enough with enough bolts that they can handle the torque. And with the way the rear suspension is setup, in the dirt late models there is no torque load on the axle tubes, so there is not any problem twisting the tubes in that application. But if you were to do a typical 4-link rear suspension where the link mounts are welded to the axle tubes, then there would be a torque load on the axle tubes trying to counteract what the center section is doing. This issue is only present on an entire aluminum axle housing. Steel axle tubes welded into iron bells can handle the torque.
Thank you for the info Marty. I want to use the late model Wilwood hubs to get the free rear disc brakes. And doing the same for the front disc brakes. It sounds like my thinking might be on track with what I want to do. I love the look of your car there, I just love the looks of the wide 5 hubs on things. Thanks again for the info and the pics.
My Frankland is an aluminum center with Jones magnesium side bells and steel axle tubes that are interference fit and double bolted. Mopar 480hp small block and a 4 speed. We'll see how it goes. -rick
The racing quick change you refer to is a live axle rear end. Used in numerous styles of racing for a long time. The drive axle is one piece. Not practical for a typical street application.
Late models don't use live axles. OP's axle has Wildwood wide five hubs on aluminum axle tubes. Mine. Retired late model rear. Had 12 spline truck axles and a spool and some old**** magnesium hubs with 10 bolt rotors. Has a used Detroit locker and double spline axles and drive flanges with newer Wilwood Hubs now.
This is a Winter’s quick change that was in a late model stock car up here in the northeast. It has the aluminum center section and aluminum side bells, with steel Grand National axle tubes. It has the 2-1/2 inch GN hub snouts. It runs a Detroit Locker differential and has full floating axles. If you’re looking at a similar rear with aluminum side tubes you can replace them with either steel or aluminum ones, and yes they are a shrink fit in the side bells and they are bolted in. This axle has 8 bolts per tube, and will handle the torque applied. There are side tubes available with either the GN snout like these, or the longer 3/4 ton snouts. The bells are bored to 3 inches nominally either way, and the tubes are a couple of thousandths larger. A word of caution, do not heat the side bells with a torch to remove and replace the tubes. Keep the bells under 300 degrees F, and use an oven or something similar to heat the bells. Put the tubes in a freezer or ice bath and make sure there are no burrs on the parts when****embling them. I was fortunate that at the time I****embled this one, I worked at a lab, and had access to an oven big enough to hold the bells. And I used liquid nitrogen to freeze the tubes. Slid together no problem. For reference here’s an open tube Halibrand qc: The axle tube is one piece from hub to hub and rotates. This axle requires a torque tube or torque arm to restrict rotation of the center section, and the hubs typically require hairpins or Z-linkage for locating the axle.
@Dave G in Gansevoort I was trying to put together a post to clarify what the OP was trying to ask about, but you guys got in ahead of me. The problem is that he has a couple of rear ends in mind and is asking too many things at once. Originally I thought he was referring to a live axle, but now I think he is talking about a closed tube unit that with a floating arrangement that takes the torque of accelerating and braking away from the axle tubes. Trying to find a pic of one like that. What he wants is a far more simple piece, which I will address in another post. BTW I have seen a live axle under a late model. Got outlawed after it's first outing!
@Bradleybaja Wow! That IS a lot of thinking, and a lot of words (1185 to be exact) I started to answer your question, but then I see that you followed up with more info. So here is the shortened version. The rear end that you are thinking about buying is way more complicated than you need. If the price is right you may want to get it but you will wind up with a lot of stuff you don't need and will have to buy other things. Might be cheaper to get a less complicated QC. The aluminum (or magnesium) bells can be used with steel tubes. The tubes are shrink fit in the bells (about 0.003" - 0.005"). They are also bolted (usually 8 bolts per tube). THEY WON'T SPIN IN THE BELLS! The BIG bugaboo is the differential. Does the late model come with a differential or a spool? This will help determine what axles to use. If it's a spool you will need to change it to a differential. The original differential and axles were 12 splines, later stuff all uses 31. An original differential can be converted to 31 spline. If it's a differential to start with the decision is already made. 8 bolt hubs can be used with original axles or with double splined full floaters. Only problem with the original flange type is you will need 2 of the same length. Might be a bit of searching to make a pair. You can have flanged axles made to bolt directly to the hubs. That retains the look Marty Strode pictured earlier. Double splined will be cheaper and that rear probably already has them and the****ociated drive flanges. Let's talk about he front in a later post.
Uh, I did… it’s just scrap pieces of aluminum, and the bracketry is bandsawn steel plate, 3/16 hrs. The pivot axle is a1/2 inch shoulder bolt. 3/8 rod ends and threaded 1/2 inch heavy wall tubing for the links. It’s not on the car anymore. I can try to find it, and get pictures for you if you’d like to see the bits and bobs…
One other thing of note is the original Timken housings have 11 bolts at the center section, and in the aftermarket they come in 11 and 12 bolt patterns. Bruce could possibly explain it better !
If I use it, I’ll polish it up and detail it a little better… currently planning on using a panhard bar.
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