Technical Radiator ? - 32 Ford Grill/SBC

HI all,
I attempted to search around didn't quite find the answer I was looking for. I have a 31 Model A Roadster with a 32 Grill and radiator for a SBC350. In the year I've had the car, and roughly 5k miles I've had zero issues with the rad until yesterday. I've been hunting for this random vibration at highway speeds - every 3-4 seconds, I would notice the grill/rad shake back and forth for a couple of seconds, then back to still then vibrate. I've been checking out the usual suggestions. I have a new harmonic balancer, the engine idles smooth, all new tires and balanced all around.

Well, I got home last night from a 30 mile highway ride and I was getting on her a bit to open up the carb and I thought I heard something pop but I wasn't sure. I noticed the rad vibrate but nothing unusual.

When I got into the garage I was giving her a once over and for some reason I noticed that the rad would move side to side a bit - I never noticed that before. I noticed that the bracket along the bottom of the rad would pick up a bit on one side. I have a rubber strip and long screws with springs so that should have provided some play/movement and keep it from being too rigid.

Then I noticed that the top bracket snapped and one of the supports broke free. I decided I would drain the rad, pull it and try to take it to a shop to see someone could weld her back into shape.

My question (sorry for the long post) is will that work? That bottom support should be securely attached all the way across, correct?

I ***ume it's "correct" but you never know. The rubber looked pretty beat so I'll check the HW store tomorrow for a replacement but I'll probably re-use the screws and springs.

Attached are some photos.

Thanks! I really enjoy the wealth of knowledge, stories and history on this forum.

--Jon

 

My car does the same thing with the vibration. Or used to anyway, maybe I just ignore it now. I broke the soldered joint on the top radiator mount. One thing that helped with the front wheels was making sure the drums were balanced. The speedway ones were bad. But what I think may have fixed the top support mount was to make sure it was parallel with the firewall and that the rods ran straight and didn't pull on the bracket in any weird way.


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Good suggestion about making sure the support mounts are proper. I noticed one side was a bit shorter (supports are the same length) so maybe it was pulling and eventually gave out. hmm.

 

was the radiator bolted solid to the frame mounting? should have a spring to allow for radiator to move a little to avoid breaking of the solder holding the bracket to the bottom tank...

 

The radiator has to move and you have mounted it correctly although it does appear there is some excessive vibration.

How old is the radiator? HRP

 

How solid your frame is will make a world of difference. I drive a '32 tudor with a stock frame, not boxed. You can see the grille shell shake every now and then. It's just gonna happen. Ford may have tried to prevent the radiators from coming undone by using those springs at the lower mounts, but the truth is the whole system is rather fragile. That's why modern cars have their radiators mounted in rubber cushions on all corners.

 

The radiator was mounted onto some thin rubber and had springs on top. So I believe it was mounted correctly.
I don't know exactly the age of the radiator. If I believe the story told by the person I bought it from it was built in the 90s but I've cleaned up some sketchy stuff so this radiator could have had 14 lives before it made it into this car.

It's a 31 frame - not boxed. I realize that it's sticking out there and at 65-70mph that it's going to move between head-on force and cross winds. the car seems pretty stable but maybe this joint has been making it's way loose for a while and it finally got to a point where it was going to break. I guess they've earned their flexible flyer nickname

Sounds like the answer is - it is what it is - mounted properly, but with usage and wear it's just gonna do that after a while.

 

Hi Jon, I think you need to find the vibration. I bet the radiator damage is just the result of the vibration. One way to help find the vibration is where do you feel it, The steering wheel or your seat? The steering wheel usually means frontend and seat is usually rearend. Usually is the key word, as I have seen vibrations from the rear be felt in the steering.

 

Hi CrazyVern - well, that's a great point. I have all new drums and tires (radials) that were installed by a reputable shop in town so I ***ume/hope/pray all those items were properly balanced. When the vibration occurs it's most noticable at speed on the highway and you can feel the rattle thru the whole car (doors, etc).

I don't feel it in the steering - and that has some worn tie rod ends so I'm certain I'd feel it if it was related to the steering/front end.

I've replaced the shocks all around - it's springs in the front and buggy in the rear - I've considered pulling the springs and having them re-arc'd but I'm not sure if they really need it.

My rearend is another point of concern but I'll start another thread for that one. We bought this car to be mostly a driver and it needed some stuff as it had sat a while. I'm doing my best from yanking the body and going plaid on my CC but eventually it'll probably come to that.

 

You say you don't know the age..Is it a original radiator or reproduction?

Sometimes you just have to chalk it up to metal fatigue.HRP

 

HRP - the only marking on it says "continental rad." and a serial number? 003632

 

Heck,if it's holding water and cooling the car I would just repair it or have a competent radiator shop do the repairs and reinforce the ares that bother you. HRP

 

Hey Jon,
You're lucky you didn't put your fan through your radiator. Last summer I experienced the same problem you're having. Mine, however happened all at once. As I was driving I noticed my grill shell and radiator shaking back and forth (this had never happened before). So, I pull over along the Interstate and start looking around. I am able to freely move my grill shell and radiator from side to side. I also noticed my mechanical fan had taken a little bite out of my fan shroud....DOH!

So, I look at the base of my aluminum radiator to see that both the aluminum mounting L Brackets have sheared at their bends. (kinda similar to whats on the bottom of your radiator) So, just think of an L Bracket, half the bracket is welded to the side of the radiator wall, the other half comes out so you can bolt it to the frame. Luckily my father and brother were able to bring my truck and trailer so I could get it home. (not before I used my shoe laces to tie the grill shell and radiator to the frame so I could pull off the Interstate)

I have a Model A with a model a style boxed frame, 32 grill shell, SBC, lowboy radiator.

To resolve this problem I fabricated new lower mounting brackets for my radiator. The ones that came with my radiator were just thin gauge aluminum, bent in an L shape and welded to the bottom of the radiator. My first impression when I saw that was, "hmmm, that doesn't look good". Well, I was right.

Here is what I did:
-Fabricated new double gusseted lower brackets with thicker gauge aluminum.
-Placed new thicker rubber cushions between the mounting brackets and frame.
-New spring radiator mounting kit from speedway motors which allows my grill shell and radiator to move a little.
-Had my friend who welds for a living, weld the new brackets onto the radiator.

Hopefully this has solved this issue. I know it's a much better setup than I had before. Like Hamber HRP said, the vibration from your engine, the road, tires, etc will cause those mounts to break at their weakest point. For me, it was at the bends in the L brackets. Also, once you consider all the weight (grill shell, radiator, antifreeze) that those mounts have to support, you need radiator mounts that are a little beefier than what you initially had.

Here is a photo of my end result. The grill shell obscures the view of this, so it's not visible.

 

wait you got a SBC and an unboxed frame? Seems risky to me. But if it works it works.

 

You don't mention how tight the radiator mounting bolts were. The rubber pad sits under the radiator "feet" and the bolts go thru the springs to allow for the radiator to move and not be damaged by vibration. If the bolts compressed the spring too tightly, it would defeat the purpose of the spring. The Ford Service Bulletin say's "only tighten the nuts until the cotter pin will fit thru the hole in the bolt".

 

With the threat of being banned, I'm going to go "Street Rod" on you. I'm A liberal, I believe in evolution. Here's another saying, "Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it." Since Henry & Barney raced 'ol 999, Hot Rodders have strive'd to make their rides better, faster and stronger. And here we are in the middle of a "Traditional Renaissance" to honor the rods of the '30's,40's & '50's. Well you're going to have the same problems that those hot rodders experienced. You've got an engine that has eight times the power that the Model A had and your driving it twice as fast that the driver in 1931 averaged. Of course your car is going to fall apart.

We rebelled against our parents, we smoked and drank and took the mufflers off our cars. We drove hard and broke stuff. So we built it stronger. Horse power was getting easier with the SBC and 9" Fords became the norm. Automatics replaced the burnt clutches and broken teeth. Pete & Jake built 4 bars and used coil overs, Total Cost built a "futuristic" independent front end with tubing A arms, just like a race car. Disc brakes, did I mention "disc brakes"? You can get a kit to mount them to just about anything. Progressive ENGINEERING. All this neat stuff was mounted to a BOXED FRAME.

Today's youth is rebelling! Can't do it like those "Gold Chainers"! LETS PUT 350hp IN A STOCK FRAME. That'll show them! 'Ol Henry over engineered his cars for a safety factor. How much of that "safety factor" has been used up in the last 85 years? How many stretch and rebound cycles has the metal gone thru? Welded on it? Drilled holes?

I just signed up for Social Security. Don't know how many more good years to "Hot Rod" around. Lately I've taken a short cut and I just go up to someone and tap them on the shoulder and say, "You're an IDIOT". It makes me feel better.

Read up on racing drivers or jet test pilots, at some time they experience vibrations, harmonics, failure. It permeates all things mechanical. You strengthen and re-engineer. That old frame is telling you it is tired and fatigued. Too much power and too much speed has produced harmonics as the frame flexes and twists going down the road. That old C channel is like a tuning fork vibrating.

Take a lesson from those that came before you. Honor the complete evolution of the Hot Rod. Don't just recreate the part that you think is neat. Complete your education and evolution. Build a vehicle that looks good and goes as fast as you dare and is safe. I'm out there on the road too. I don't want you to crash into me and I don't want to stop and ruin my day because you broke. (I would, but I don't want to). Red........... Old Fart gold chainer

 

You have much longer bolts than stock at bottom, and a very long spring. No telling how stiff spring is...you may have excess motion down there, or, conversely, too little because spring is real stiff.
Does that picture show IFS on the car? I would asume boxed frame if so...
I would try to replicate stock spring arrangement rather than using whatever Home Depot has down there...original bolt is only 2 inches total, and as noted above has a cotter that secures it and tells you exactly how far to tighten. Cotter is also necessary because bolt used to tension a spring can't be tightened. Get a proper set of hardware from Nacewicz bolts or one of the many parts dealers to eliminate all the unknowns there.

 

Bruce, I don't see any photos from the OP that shows IFS or a bolt and spring. What are you referring to? If you're referring to my photos, I can ***ure you I have the correct mounting kit. I purchased the radiator mounting kit pictured above from a very well known speed shop. Are you confusing me with the OP?

 

Ah! Yes, I was looking at your post and failed to shift gears. Your radiator springs worry me!

 

Speedon, I can see what Bruce see's. Your frame is too shiny and it confuses us old guys. And the aluminum bracket is shiny too and it makes the spring look twice as long. The reflection in the frame can be mistaken for a arms. I see the top of the spring perch and can barely see the axle.

 

HAMBer redo32 has it right. I think the angle of the photo I posted and the gloss black frame (newer build) may be playing tricks on your eyes. (4" dropped super bell front axle) I have the radiator spring kit mounted correctly. It's just tight enough to get the cotter pin in, yet loose enough to allow the radiator some give/travel.

 

Ford took that bit of hardware very seriously, as after some Model A radiator failures they modified the spring and bolt so it couldn't be overtightened...bolt was given very short threaded section so that it bottomed at about the time the cotter could go in. Gorilla proofing in action, after they noticed no one was actually reading the service bulletins!

 

Bruce, you make a great point. Last summer when I was brainstorming ideas for my new radiator mounting brackets I looked at other hot rods at car shows.
While looking at radiator brackets I also noticed that many people are not using a radiator mounting kit. Many just use some random bolt, no spring, and no rubber between the radiator mounts. I will say I was a bit surprised to see this. I further wondered how they could not have problems. My guess is that they will some day.

I knew I still had the package in the garage. Here is the kit I used to mount my Ron Davis radiator.


To Jon, the OP. Make sure you're using the proper radiator mounting hardware.

 

Guys - great thread. I appreciate all the input. I bought the car - it was built in a 1960's hot rod likeness - is it totally true to form, no, but I've been stopped by a lot of folks who swear it's how they remember them.

As for the SBC350 - it's from a 1972 Nova SS and rated at 185hp. still way more power than original and i was the checking out the motor mounts last night and thinking I'd like them to at least have boxed in that portion. There's no cracking, but I may revisit that area - it's on the list.

Speedon - great pics. My support bracket seems to run the length of the radiator. I dropped it off at a shop this morning and he's going to re-solder that bracket as well as fix where the top broke off. I'm glad it didn't get munged up thru the fan. And I'm going to investigate some new screws and springs - they weren't overtightened, but if can get proper ones for short money and have it done right then I'm in! Did that mounting kit you show include the rubber as well? The speedway kit has screws, springs and the rubber.

 

Hey Jon, yes the kit will come with all the hardware you need, including the rubber pads. These kits are inexpensive and readily available at most speed shops including Speedway Motors. They sell for under $10.00?? There are no instructions included as its really pretty self explanatory...just follow the advise given here. Only tighten until you can put in the cotter pin.

 

Check the area where the original rear Model A motor mounts attach to the ch***is. The mounts had 4 holes that attached them to the ch***is. This is where stock Model A ch***is always seem to "sag". I have seen some of them "sag" buy about 1/2". Just make sure there are no cracks up and down between the holes and the frame. Even though you only have about 185 HP thats over 4 times the Model A at 40HP.

 

I was just there and some of the frame is boxed - around where they Z'd the frame and where the transmission support is installed. I'll check that mount point. good tip. Thanks!

 

Jon, I had the same problem with my radiator (alunimum). I had to reweld every tab on it a couple times, then I found what was causing the vibration.

Might want to read this post... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/i-found-the-front-end-vibration.966349/

 

Montana1 - good tip. I'm actually running 1940 Ford drums all around. I don't believe we had to change out any hubs when we did that. I believe they had the drums turned.

You guys addressed my initial question regarding the radiator. I understand why this is turning into a vibration thread. When I have this vibration I don't feel it in the steering or even holding on to the shifter knob - so I don't feel like it's coming from the motor, trans, u-joints, driveshaft. I do have some looseness in the steering which I think is due to some play in my drag link and I know that I need to replace a tie-rod end there. I'm going to order up those pieces.

I'll keep researching and adjusting. I'll get to the bottom of it ;-)

 

My problem was the opposite. I had thick rubber pads and springs.it still shook like crazy.I put thin rubber pads and no spring and habnt had a problem since.and my car shakes....a lot