Re-Stamping VIN Numbers...or beating dead horses...you decide!?!

What if you need to put a cab or dash in your late model pickup. VIN is different, or nonexistent on new parts. Seems like a similar situation that probably happens a lot more often than changing frames on antique cars. Does cali have a way of recording that change with the DMV? I know in iowa, to register a salvage title vehicle you need to provide proof of ownership, receipts for major parts including VIN from parts cars, bring this with the car to an inspector they check for stolen parts and record the parts and numbers with the state. You pay a fee, he signs your application and you take it to the DMV for new title and registration. I've never personally had to replace the main VIN on a vehicle but I'm sure they have a procedure to deal with it. I rebodied an early 90's dodge pickup (rollover) with mid 80's front, cab and box. I kept the original 91 frame, drive train and interior (VIN was attached to the plastic dash panel not the cab). I had it inspected, state kept a record of the parts and VIN from the 85 donor truck. It remained titled as a 91. No need to save the old parts to prove anything. What if you have a 91 dodge PU with a burnt or busted dash, the replacement would have different VIN, they must have a way to deal with that. I would not stamp any VIN numbers without clearing it with the DMV.

 

I believe special construction vehicles also get blue tags, but not all vehicles with blue tags are special construction vehicles. I personally own a blue tagged motorcycle that is titled as a 1977 harley davidson, the frame was swapped out

 

This is pretty sobering.

 

Great thread, I must follow. My situation is similar, having a '29 coupe, running, currently registered and insured; but I am planning to replace motor and frame (deuce) in the next few years. Blue tag may be appropriate for me as the "VIN" is the engine number and is a more recent 1930 banger motor with a cracked block and a frame that can not be verified as original, matching the body. I bought a running registered car in hopes of reducing registration red tape when I change out the motor and frame. I am thinking it may be best to see if DMV will give it a "blue tag" VIN before the cracked block is replaced.

I have a blue tag on a '29 cabriolet that the CHP officer placed (early 1990s) when I went to register the car, even though the engine number matched the registration number, simply because he could not see the frame number and verify it matched the engine number. Registration was being officially transferred to myself, from my deceased father (who bought the car new in 1929), though I had possession of the car since 1958. I am currently building the cabriolet and, with the body now off, have verified that the engine and frame numbers match.

 

I have been following this thread since the beginning. It is interesting to hear peoples opinion on this subject and the different state rules. I have a friend that is a Pennsylvania state tropper. He has over 20 years of service and has been the officer in charge of state inspection station problems.
He can spout off all the reasons why it is illegal to restamp numbers. They have all been expressed in the above posts. His opinion to me was... stamp the damn numbers. He has no time to worry about some things like this. Better than no numbers. You are not really attempting to defraud anyone. If you have an ins. claim there need to be numbers, be it theft or accident. Fraud would be stamping the numbers after the fact, for financial gain. Fraud would be changing the numbers to make a car something it is not, ie. making a 6 cyl car a big block car for financial gain.
That being said he said it was illegal to stamp numbers. You go into business restamping numbers you will go to jail. You have a cop that has a hard on for you, your car, or wants to advance his job. You will have a problem. Procede at your own risk.

 

I think you pretty much nailed it.

My conclusions on this topic:

In the state of California, there is no clear avenue by which you can LEGALLY change your Model A's frame to an aftermarket unit, unless you apply for a Special Construction Title. Unless you find a really cool, pro-hobby CHP VIN officer, you cannot bring an A body sitting on an aftermarket Deuce frame, with a current title and a story about how you swapped frames and get a "Blue Tag"...the officer will (by law) default to a Special Construction Title.

This is extremely frustrating, because I have now had two different California police officers tell me to "just stamp my Model A numbers in the new frame and don't worry about it", and yet in almost the same breathe both of them have cautioned me that it IS a Felony and COULD land me in jail for a long time if I ever got pulled over by an officer that was having a bad day. Ten years ago I probably would have rolled the dice, but now with a house and a family just starting out, it's not worth the risk, especially with hot rods more in the cross-hairs of bureaucrats than ever before.

Anyway, for my personal situation, I have decided that I am going to shell out the stupid money that a set of Original '32 rails fetch now-a-days, get them registered, and just build my Model A on a legitimate '32 frame. So far as I can tell, I will be completely legal this way, since California follows the VIN number on the frame with early Fords. So I will have a '31 Ford Model A registered as a '32. In my mind this seems more, dare I say...fraudulent than just stamping my A numbers in a new frame, but to operate within' the law this seems to be the only TRULY LEGAL way.

I know I will probably catch a lot of flack...get told to sack up and take the risk...whatever! An aftermarket Deuce frame costs $2,000. A more or less perfect Original Deuce Frame costs $3,000. By the time I box and reinforce the original frame I'm up to $4,000. So for a $2,000 premium I can be legal, and never have to worry about my car being impounded, my butt landing in jail (because that's the part I'm really worried about), or getting denied an insurance claim if a soccer mom plows into me at a light (if I live)...to me that's $2,000 well spent.

Thanks for following along! Sorry I didn't reach a better conclusion.

 

Seems a shame that you now are going to apparently 'scrap' the original Model A title that you have for the car. If you are really going to buy a gennie '32 frame then put the A body on it and title the car as a '32, wouldn't it make sense to just buy a different model A body and leave the original car intact and titled as an A?

What about this idea? Why not use the original A frame? Cut the A frame rails in half (a few inches behind the location on the frame that includes the production #'s). Buy a set of repop 32 rails, cut them in half, and graft the rear of the '32 rails to the front of the A rails. It would take some work to make it look right, but if it were done correctly I think you could end up with a frame that pretty much looked like ' 32 with model A horns on the front. If the front and rear crossmembers from the A were used, the frame would be about 50% original Model A and would have the original #'s on it that match your title. It might sound like a ridiculous amount of work to build a frame this way but considering your options it doesn’t sound any crazier than some of the other ideas I have heard. Could this work?

 

I considered this...could work. I also considered just adding the part of a Deuce frame with the reveal to the outside of an a frame and blending it in really nicely.

 

An interesting twist...I found and almost purchased an original 1932 frame the other day. Price was right, the numbers were clearly visible, and the ownered had it so long he swore it was "out of the system". Using my better judgement I had the numbers checked by the DMV anyway, and guess what!?! CURRENTLY REGISTERED!!!

Anyway, as much fun as it would be to open THAT can of worms, I decided to pass. I know that technically, my new "original" frame would trump somebodies aftermarket one, but without the rest of the car to go along with it neither of us would probably "win" in the situation...not to mention the moral issues that would arise from potentially ruining somebodies life with an unintentional felony fraud charge.

On another note, I have talked with two other people selling original '32 frames online, exchanging several emails back and forth, and when I asked them to send me the numbers they clam up; a couple I surmise were afraid that I would somehow defraud them if I had the number prior to paying for the frame. Both said something along the lines of "you can see the number when you get the frame". I've tried to explain my intentions by laying out the rumor I've heard that there are more 1932 Fords registered in California alone than Henry Ford ever built, but wanting the number ahead of time has created two dead-ends so far.

My favorite though, by far, was a $3,000 super-clean original frame that I came across. A hefty price tag to be sure, but with a clearly legible original number on it I figured that maybe this is the price I'm going to have to pay...and I was ready to shell it out when the owner asked me "why I was asking so many questions about the number"? I told him that I needed to make sure the number was clear so that I could get the frame registered, and explained that this was the ENTIRE reason I was willing to spend sooooo much for an original frame, when you could get an aftermarket frame for less money. He said, "Oh, well you can't use the numbers on it...I already used them for my car". WOW!!! I explained to the fellow that he had committed fraud, which he didn't appreciate, and then I told him that he better take his fraud a step further and cut the numbers out of his super-clean original frame, or just cut it up all together, to avoid having somebody like me paying him $3,000 for it and then exposing his fraud to the DMV...and that's where he stopped talking to me.

I'm starting to think that this really is going to be tough to do the "right way".

 

THIS is why I said what I did concerning stamping numbers on another frame, while the original frame still exists. Enough people have been doing things the WRONG way/ILLEGAL way for so long, that this is what things have come to. It's truly a shame.

 

I listened.

 

Maybe this came up before. Frames do rust out or get bent. In years past you could buy a replacement frame from the OEM of choice. There must have been a way to notify DMV of the new frame and carry over the Vin. That way probubly still exists but is never used, Try to find it. Maybe in Salvage section.

 

you can still buy replacement frames. A couple of years ago my son was working in a dealership bodyshop. They would get frame swap jobs on pickups and suburbans. These were on trucks that insurance was paying to have fixed, and going back to the orig owners. These guys were fast and good so they had a constant stream of them.

 

Now to throw a stick into your careful conclusion............
I have a friend who did exactly as you are planning. Gennie 32 frame with a 31 body. Licensed, tagged & registered as a 32.
Got pulled over last year in a sobriety checkpoint & they pulled his car to the side. The question arose of the 31 Ford w/ the 32 registration. Red flag to the officer. His arguement was you could steal lets say a 31 Ford & replace the frame with a 32 that you had a title for. They siezed his registration on the spot but let him tow the vehicle home while he sorted the mess out. Right now, he's spent a ton of money on an attorney to sort the mess out & now seems his only option is to find either a 31 frame w/ number clear & visible w/ title, or find a 32 body to match his frame. It's still sitting to this day.

Now my car started life as a 32. Several sections are gennie but the rest is steel aftermarket. All steel car but less than 10% is the real deal. After blasting there wasn't much left to work with. The frame was in terrible shape. Rusted through (like the body) & badly twisted. At the time, it seemed smarter to use an aftermarket frame. So- I marched down to Calif DMV to see what the best & legal way to build this car. Per the DMV in 1998, you must verify the VIN on the frame 1st & then cut out the frame section w/ numbers intact. Then weld that piece into the new frame. No fraud intended- transferring the numbers to the new frame. You can then attach a matching number to body if you want but not necessary.
I've since had several cop friends tell me later I should have just stamped the numbers into my new frame & not worry about it. Per them- if the number matches the registration, that's as far as they would take it. However, if the title says 32 & you are driving an A, they would take a closer look. I doub't you would have issues w/ a stamped frame if all matches. There are stamps that match the factory stamps available if you search around. Not that I'm telling you to stamp your frame or anything but as long as everything matches, no red flags will be raised.

 

So cali sucks huh? No one in Texas is gonna check your vin, ever. And once you got antique plates you dont have to register or get inspections for 5 years at a time, and the cops never hassle you unless they see you pass the same speed trap every morning on your way to work, then they might say to cut it out, cause you arent supossed to drive antique plates everyday.

 

Sweet Jesus! Pardon my language, but what a cluster f$&k! Well, I am on my way to the DMV right now...let's see what they say.

 

If it were me I'd fix the original "A" frame no matter how bad it is. If I really really wanted to have a model A body on top of a 32 frame I'd sell the A complete with title, buy an A body without a title, and be $$$ ahead. I'm sure that there would be someone out there that would want a complete A with title, and pay good $$$ for it. Just an opinion.

 

With my Maxwell, the VIN is the engine number. No frame number at all. We we got tired of welding the block (several times) we swapped engines. Now the car has no numbers on it at all that match the VIN on the registration.

The RMV didn't care, they said that the car was too old to bother with. Same with the insurance company.

Could be that the law reads one way, and reality is something else all together. I'm going to stamp the number on the registration somewhere on the frame soon.

Just saying, maybe you could do the same. Stamp the numbers and back away. Just figure that the cars has ALWAYS been that way.

Luck ! !

TC

 

Reporting in from the DMV office via iPhone. So far it's just a long wait, as per usual.

Anyway TC, I started this thread looking for advice, but now I intend to try and discover if there is a LEGAL way to do this...and perhaps if there is, I can lay a road map for future rodders to do the same.

I will report back soon!

 

Ok...so the long-awaited finalé...the DMV told me to talk to...the CHP! But wait! Before you switch off your monitors, I decided to just level with the CHP this time, and since I had talked to them before, I knew I could get through to them without the wait this time.

I should also note, that I did not tell the CHP I planned on reporting back to an Internet community, and that all the responses are not direct quotations, but just my interpretation of what was said.

So I called up the CHP and I told them that, after talking to a shop, my stock A-frame was deemed unusable, and that I was recommended to purchase an aftermarket frame. I asked if there was any way I could do a before/after VIN inspection, surrender my stock frame, and get my numbers stamped in the new frame?

The answer was that if my frame was really that damaged that I could go and find another Model A frame and that the registration could be updated to show the new frame's numbers. I was assured that it'd be a real smooth and easy process. It was then explained that an aftermarket frame constitutes the use of a Special Construction Title every time...Ford didn't make it, it can't be registered as a Ford. I was told that I could Put an Alston front and an Alston rear on my stock frame, and that that's ok, but that the part of the frame where the VIN was stamped cannot be alterred.

So my response was that the part of my frame with the VIN on it is only about a 2" x 4" chunk of metal, and asked if I could replace everything but that part?

I was told that if my aftermarket frame looks just like a stock frame, and a chunk of my stock frame with the original number is welded back on cleanly enough that it's not obvious, then they would "probably" let it through, but if it looks like an aftermarket frame, made out of solid tubing, or with independent suspension, or a four link, or a fiberglass body, then they would "probably" NOT let it through.

So, I asked, what if it looks like a completely stock 1932 frame?

The response was that a 1932 frame looks nothing like a stock Model A frame, so unless I've got the genuine 1932 body sitting on top of it, they're not gonna let it through.

Then I asked, that since the VIN follows the frame, if I could buy a 1932 frame, and get that registered, and then put my Model A body on it?

The answer was a plain and simple NO.

I asked why then, if it was legal for me to put a 1931 body on a 1930 frame, that I could not put a 1931 body on a 1932 frame?

The answer was that it is because a 1932 frame looks very different from a Model A frame, and a 1932 body looks different enough from a Model A body to notice, and that the State of California considers that a Special Construction vehicle.

So there you have it. Direct from the horses mouth. There is NO legal way to build a proper A-V8 in California without going through the dreaded Special Construction process. Not that most of you won't still go right on ahead driving A's titled as deuces, or A-V8's with no numbers at all, or just stamping your own, but unfortunately as this hobby increases in popularity, the more resources our government will afford towards an effort to police it.

In other news, I have decided to take my stock A frame, lengthen it slightly to the 1932 wheel-base, and tie the mid-section of some ASC rails into the sides of the A frame. I think when I am done I will have a stronger frame, that fits the A body perfectly, but looks a lot like a '32 frame, and uses 100% of my original A frame. If you can't beat them, join them.

 

Kinda wish i hadnt ordered a 32 frame. Guess ill use it anyway.

 

thanks for all the updates and information. It's important for all of us in the other states, too. Because CA leads the way. I know that NJ will not be far behind in tougher rules. Our politicians here think of themselves as CA lite.

 

And now go to a different CHP office or call and talk to someone different and you'll probably get an entirely different answer.

 

I agree with you...to an extent. I think that you will definitely get different answers everywhere you go, but at the same time I think that law enforcement agencies and DMV's across the state are trying to get their employees on the same page. If you're reading this thread and thinking that the State of California isn't devoting significant resources to policing Hot Rods, you've probably got your head in the sand. What we need is a present-day Wally Parks, but I'm not him, and I'm not holding my breathe for somebody to step up, so the alternative is to educate yourself, and at least KNOW when you are breaking the law, so that you can behave accordingly. My Austrian friend said it best..."your California Vehicle Code is just a contract that you've signed, and your ticket is simply an acusation that you are in breach".

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a Political discussion, at least not anymore than it already is. I'd like if this thread stayed up, and if anybody actually get's some good advice, either from their Motor Vehicle department or local law enforcement, post it up here so that the rest of us can have one more tool in our tool belts.

Thanks!

 

I haven't read the whole thread, but I've read enough to know the "They don't know the difference." folks should be able to figure out that they DO know the difference.

If you want to go the easy route, you need to be willing to watch your car on a hook, headed for impound without getting upset.
Larry T

 

Ok...I just wanted to add...

...and I am in know way professing to be a professional of any sort, an authorized legal representative, or any other person whom you should put any trust, faith, etc into, but...

If you were to buy a Model A that had a California Blue Tag already on it, and said car had a frame underneath it with a missing (rusted beyond recognition, etc) Serial number, you could "probably" swap said frame to whatever frame you wanted and "probably" do so without ANY danger of ever getting into trouble over it. I just wouldn't tell anybody what you did at that point, and I would make sure that the frame that came out from underneath the car was cut up into a million pieces and never ever saw the light of day again...just to be safe. Rusted beyond recognition or not, a number can almost always be raised, so you wouldn't want that coming back to bite you. Again, I'm no expert, but I read everything relating to VIN numbers that I could find in the CVC, and I didn't understand there to be anything in there that would forbid this plan of action.

If there is one thing that I have learned about our legal system it is that it doesn't like to contradict itself. It is my understanding that the California Blue Tag is basically beyond reproach. It is also my understanding that when issued a California Blue Tag, it becomes the primary identification number for the vehicle, which is probably why they are so reluctant to issue them anymore. But the silver lining on this little tid bit of information is that by swapping the frame on a Blue Tag car, you are no longer messing with the VIN, but simply changing a part.

Now if, you pulled the body off and there was a plainly visible VIN number there that matched the Blue Tag number...I don't know. You could "probably" proceed as above, but I think at that point that it could be argued you were feloniously altering the car's VIN, so I would proceed there with caution, if at all.

Just my $.02

I realized that I said above that there was NO legal way to build a proper A-V8 without a Special Construction Title in the state of California, but I think that this could potentially be a loop-hole. Again, use at your own risk!

And now I want everybody in the state of California with a Blue Tagged car to send $100 to my PayPal account; because I just raised the value of your vehicle.

...or just sell me your car...so I can put an aftermarket Deuce frame under it!

 

Suddenly I'm glad I live in New York.....

 

The problem with much of this situation is that not a lot of any of it is coming from the actual entities that perform the tasks related to what is going on. A lot of it is being devised as hopeful truths and wishes and some just comes from the planted seeds of outright Bull shit.

The fact is that you can use these parts and interchange these components but you must buy them from people who have gone through the proper processes of the legal system to obtain their new numbers. This is why states are bonding titles, so that you won't have these types of situations where a guy gets desperate and becomes a criminal by confusion.

The only absolute way in which you are going to be 100% certain that you are not going to be committing a criminal act is to contact those whom administer the laws. Go through the process and have clean stuff. As you are quickly learning, it's really easier to go that way.

 

I believe that you are talking about, at least as we call it in California, Special Construction. If I am mistaking your suggestion, then please clarify. Special Construction is unfavorable because you have to wait for one of the 500 titles they issue each year (it's my understanding that you can wait years to obtain one), and whether they grant you a smog exempt status or not, your title will say 2012 or later if you are lucky enough to get one at all.

The CHP does not write the law, but they definitely do some of it's administration, and they have told me that I need to try and get a Special Construction Title if I want to legally have an aftermarket frame under my '31, unless I make it look COMPLETELY stock (essentially enough to fool them, was what I took away from the conversation).

My suggestion that you could "probably" swap the frame on a Blue Tagged car safely, was based merely on my understanding of the laws that I have read. Somebody who administers those laws might not agree, but that would be for a judge to decide ultimately, I guess.

I am definitely not trying to plant any bullshit seeds, and anybody who knows me will tell you that I am anything but hopeful.

 

I went the other way. I am in Missouri. I had a '32 frame and title. I mounted a '26 roadster body and use the '32 title. Any thoughts on that?