Hey ***us. You sure are good at make someone elses ideas sound like your own. I work with Kelso, and Ive had him do work for me in his shop. In fact, I was there the day he started building that fixture. You had nothing to do with it until it was completed, and he had already tested it. Damn right he was mad when he heard you had done this!! I would be too! He had planned on charging a minimal amount to bend these axles, but you make it public, and give everybody pictures so they can just build thier own. There's a reason he didn't want it posted.... How do you know these axles are going to hold up? I have a few points that Kelso made, and being a mechanical engineer, I agree with him: How do you know these axles arent just going to break at the drop point?!?!! You're using "old metal", most of the cars these will eventually be going in have larger engines than stock. What happens the first time these are taken out for a drive? Who's to say they won't just snap under the load. Did you take one in and have it magna-fluxed for internal cracks?? I'm sure you didn't. How about bringing it to a place like Twin City Testing to have a shock load test done, this probably wouldn't be a bad idea either. When you account for the weight load your using, the torque factor on the axle during acceleration, and combine that with a bumpy road.... How long are these going to hold up??? All it takes is one yahoo out there to bend up thier own axle, throw it on a car, and be on a cruise. The axle breaks, and they go after you or worse yet Kelso for the damage to thier car, or worse yet the damage to themselves. People have sued for less. Next time think before you try to steal the credit for someone elses idea!! TerryTheToad.
Before you all ******** this fella, you might want to let the accused (***us) respond. He DOES bring up good points concerning safety...something a lot of you would sacrifice to save a hundred bucks or so.(I'm guilty of this too) I also would like to hear what the official HAMB metallurgist has to say...if he hasn't already given his opinion. However, I know that the original dropped axles were dropped by a blacksmith, so I'm ***uming that these were also done with heat...and I've never heard an account of one of the originals breaking. For the record, I have no affiliation with either if these guys. I'd just like for all the facts to come out so we can all come to an intelligent (read: non-ignorant) conclusion. And because the home-made dropped axle seems to be good idea that people here are bound to end up trying.
I'm too lazy to go find the post again, but I don't think ***us claimed the whole process as his own idea or work. There was a detailed discussion on the strength and metalurgy of the drop and cooling process, in the end everyone agreed it was not a strength reducing process so long as it was not quenched. If soemone decides to take this example and try it themselves, I don't think there is any legal ramification to the original poster. I saw some **** on Monster garage and tried to turn my PT Cruiser into a wood chipper, lost my finger and want to sue Jesse....WTF. TZ
I don't care if he's right or not. Breaking down the door and entering with a shotgun isn't the best way to come in. BTW B***, the heating and bending of the axles doesn't worry me near as much as doing the same to the steering arms on the spindles to match the drop. That also has been done forever and seems to work safely.
I agree on both counts, Smokin' Joe. He most definitely could have made his point more eloquently. But I think that sometimes board etiquette needs to be set aside. The bending of steering arms worries me a bit, too...and I can see your point. I'd still like to hear what 38Chevy454 has to say regarding metallurgy.
Alright, I'm not so lazy. I went back and found the post, it starts out as follows. [ QUOTE ] "Here are some pics of a jig me and a buddy made to drop axles" [/ QUOTE ] It doesn't sound like ***us is trying to claim full credit to me.
Any heating of an old Ford axle, forged or not and as long as it is not rapidly quenched, is not going to seriously affect the strength unless it was heat-treated and I'm not aware of any that were. The strength imparted by forging is going to be less affected than that imparted by a controlled quench heat-treatment. If anything a heated axle would be slightly more malleable and less prone to breakage even with it being a bit smaller in cross section at the bend. Old Ford axles are plenty strong to begin with. They held up cars with engines nearly as heavy as modern V8s and although they weren't subjected to the speeds of today they were subjected to constant pounding on the miserable rutted dirt byways of the 20s-40s cushioned only by skinny high-pressure tires. Unless you're planning to smash into foot-deep potholes at 70 then there's not much to worry about. Same goes for steering arms. Never heard of either one breaking but there's always a first time I guess. I have seen Model A axles that were practically pretzled by crash damage and no breakage was visible.
*****, *****, *****. I thought drama week was cancelled? I think if an idea for a process is SO simple, that its BS to try and keep it to yourself... Now, if say YEARS of research and a lot of money were spent, thats different, but I commend ***us for showing us. Toad, post an intro, or buzz off.
[ QUOTE ] I'd still like to hear what 38Chevy454 has to say regarding metallurgy. [/ QUOTE ] I agree, especially as I plan to use a Mor-Drop and heat & bend the 40 spindles, A-Bones and F-1 shock mounts on the 31 coupe. Maybe we should start up another post to get out of the shrapnel that'll be flying in this one soon.
Terry, you should probably have introduced yourself before giving someone some **** (That was your first mistatke) First: If your buddy Kelso didn't want ***us posting the tech, then he should talk to him about it and have ***us explain to Hambers what went wrong, not use the board for your friend to voice his anger toward ***us Second: You state that Kelso didn't want people copying his idea. Too late for that, so your post is worthless for that one. ***us also said that his buddy was charging a minimal fee in one of his other posts (Plus I don't think everyone is going to run out and make their own axels) C: You voice your concern for the safety issue. Because some guy bends an axel in his garage, Kelso is probably not liable Lastly: He didn't steel credit, as stated before. Finally: Where's your intro?
I agree with Burndup, maybe it is time to get rid of the personal opinions and guess work... If we have 1 ***us Drop or a New Drop tested the right way, we will know if we have neat wall art or safe Traditional Hot Rod parts. The HAMB is probably the only place in the world where enough people would be interested in the outcome to finance such expensive tests. In other words put up your part of the cash, or shut up. I have a New Drop ready to go on my roadster, and I am not to worried about it. But more information never hurts, and to me, is worth some money...
wow, i'd like to meet this kelso fella, he must be pretty old, having invented dropped axles and all. it don't take a rocket scientist to drop an axle, this ain't ****ing propietary information. kelso should worry about HIS axles breaking. and being i am one of the ones who asked for the information, thanks ***us, maybe he got a little carried away with the credit, but the info is much appreciated.
Ah yes, the elusive "Kelso", inventor of the dropped axle... Funny, ol' Kelso is so worried about the structural soundness of axles that have been through "his" process, yet it sounds like he is plenty eager to make a buck off of the process. Hey Toad! Is that you on that computer? Geez, what a waste of machinery! Get lost Nancy!
Kelso isn't the only boy on the block with a torch and bottle jacks. When I saw the ***us post I thought of my granfather..., Seems this **** was done on farms all over the U.S. on tractors..! So I think Kelso should give credit to my Grandfather for inventing the dropped axle...!
[ QUOTE ] .... How do you know these axles are going to hold up? I have a few points that Kelso made, and being a mechanical engineer, I agree with him: How do you know these axles arent just going to break at the drop point?!?!! You're using "old metal", most of the cars these will eventually be going in have larger engines than stock. What happens the first time these are taken out for a drive? Who's to say they won't just snap under the load. Did you take one in and have it magna-fluxed for internal cracks?? I'm sure you didn't. How about bringing it to a place like Twin City Testing to have a shock load test done, this probably wouldn't be a bad idea either. When you account for the weight load your using, the torque factor on the axle during acceleration, and combine that with a bumpy road.... How long are these going to hold up??? [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If I understand the proces right, Magna-flux will not help you detect internal cracks... X ray will. [/ QUOTE ] Cracks are most likely to occur at the surface, since the greater the distance from the neutral axis,the higher the stresses.. Magnaflux will help find cracks at the surface. X-ray is more for finding inclusions,and porosity,in welds. The torque loads on the front axle under acceleration are almost nonexistant. The front axle is loaded in torsion under braking,and Yes, increasing the drop would increase the torsional loads. However,if the axle is not Quenched after stretching,it is not going to get brittle. In fact,the extra heat will normalize the area,which would eliminate any work hardening that has occured over the last 75 years. But thenbeing a Mechanical Engineer,you would know that. The price that ***us quoted was low enough that it would not justify someone making a fixture to do just one axle.Unfortunately,this conflict will end up costing you guys some business. There is no one that hates people taking credit for work they didn't do,than myself. BUT,if you guys have a problem with ***us,take it up with him.
[ QUOTE ] so internal cracks are not likely to happen, if there are none on the surface? [/ QUOTE ] Based on my understanding of stresses and work hardening,that is correct. The vast majority of times,cracks start from the outside.
Mordrop have done hundreds if not thousands of axles just the same way, and they were featured in Street Rodder (I think) a couple years back, with full credits and kudos. No word there about heat treating, crack testing, annealing, safety issues or whatever. Paul
Ummm...I have an article that was in one of the major mags, either R'n'C or Street Rodder around 1990 that showed the drop process as used by Mor-Drop at that time. In that article, it showed the axle was NOT heated, but rather bent cold on a HUGE press. Mor-Drop may have heated axles in the past, but I don't think that is the case any longer. I'll have to dig that article out when I get home.
Great! That test is cheap enough to do for each individual axle. That eleminates the need to turn this thread into an other Jerry Springer type Drama Fest.
Hey everybody its christmas and im getting slammed!!! just got on and noticied this post! I know i didnt come up with the idea of the jig but a few friend were also making up a jig and brian herd about it and asked me a little more about, no im not takeing the credit for the whole deal (if you noticied i never said I, it was always we or me and my buddy, etc etc) but brian was wondering about it and he just built a jig off of the ideas we talked about.And when i put it on here i never intended for as much feed back as i got. Brian new i was going to put this on here beacause i told him!! thats why we were taking pics!! I have talked to him about this already when he called me sat night. He also new i was going to put axle on tha hamb for sale. and theres a still alot of people who arent going to go out and make ther own jig, theyd rather have someone do it. Every body so dam worried about it breaking, it aint gonna! if it was gonna happen it wouldve happened along time ago!!! mor-drop and dago wouldt be around! things were a little crued back in the day, ive even herd of axles where they cut the ends off and formed drops out of flat bar in the shape of a beam!!! i even built one like this and it is on my 34 tudor (ill find out if this one will break this summer!) but im not worried!!! so Mr fields, before you go blabbing your mouth make sure you have more than one side of the story!!! i never laid full claim to it and i think its pretty sad of you to act in this way. Brian did call me and i did apoligize to him if we had a misunderstanding. thanks everyone for the support (good or bad) because you always need to here both sides of the story. Brian is a very smart guy and am glad to know him and hope this isnt going to effect our friend-ship but if idt does itll be his choice, i dont like keeping secrets about good info or ideas (whether or not they were mine) beacause the sports about having fun!! Till next time ***US
im sure i might get slammed for this , even though i would use one of these axle without a second thought, and im pretty sure nothing would ever happen, we live in a differnt time lawsuits ,liability, i would be scared to sell these axles , ever seen the cans with "KNOWN TO CAUSE CANCER IN CALIFORNIA" really? only CA! no theres just three lawyers to every one average person here , 2 of which are ambulance chasers salivating at the chance of a lawsuit, no one more then i wish it was 1945,... but its not , i probely would have kept it secret too , but its not..now what...ANY LAWYERS ON THE HAMB, IF SO HOW 'BOUT SOME ADVISE?
I agree with that thirtytwo said. I would use an axle I dropped myself on MY own car, but I wouldnt sell them to others. If they **** it up when they put it on and they crack it somehow and kill themself, I wouldnt wanna be the one in jail over a few bucks . Just my thoughts Briggs
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