I remember watching seat belt tests in the Body Engineering Lab at Ford. If belts were mounted to the seat they had to withstand 30Gs, meaning that the weight of the dummy and the seat was subjected to 30 x (driver+ seat assembly). So for a 350 lb combined weight that seat anchor had to withstand 10,500 lb load. The tensile testing rig was pulling through holes torched in the firewall while the car was anchored to the test bed. The machine literally pulled the floorpan inside out before failure. Thereafter, I tried to use very large cupped washers welded to the underside of my floors or install an outrigger (inrigger?) on the frame rail to handle the load. Another eye-opener for me, unfortunately, was when I crashed my old Logghe roadster head-on into the concrete guardrail at Norwalk. Although I was belted in with a 5-point harness and helmeted I bent the 1" chrome moly front seat crossmember brace forward an inch or so. Fractured L4 and L5 vertabrae and temporarily lost my vision. That gave new respect for following NHRA minimum guidelines.
using a “body reinforcement” isn’t a bad idea. The term roll cage gets the engineers and race guys stirred up about rules and such. Those are important on the track. The body reinforcement I’ve done wouldn’t meet any race spec. But the door alignment was more consistent and hopefully prevented the coupe cracks due to bloody flexing. Probably helped in a moderate side hit or possible roll over. I’ve never seen a car denied insurance for a cage. I’ve put both custom built and bolt in cages in cars insured and street driven with race harnesses.
Not really applicable to the question but for general knowledge. In Australia you won't get a modified car engineer approved with a rollcage for street rego.
When my Dad and I took the Thames to DMV to get a VIN, street legal title in a very small town. After all safety checks, DMV Inspector said (75+yr old) ..Y'all built a real nice car. (What ever this is) And I am not going to ride in it for road worthyness portion of test. I will just take your word for it. VIN and Titled.
I insured my OT dune buggy through Haggerty and they requested photos. When they saw the roll cage they almost didn't insure it. It had wheelie bars when I bought it and they definitely nixed that, which was okay since they were the first thing off the car. What we may tell our wives are safety items the insurers see as high-risk, racing accoutrements.
Just curious, have you ever had to make a claim? Would they quibble about this sort of stuff when it comes time to cough up some money?
Schroth (spelling?) make a 4-point harness they call a harness belt, that is also DOT approved. Very spendy, more than a quality race harness, but uses good engineering to make them effective without the 5th strap. It has to do with one of the shoulder straps having a fold sewn into it in such a way that in an accident the strap allows the person's upper body to rotate, causing the abdomen to "lock" the lap portion down to the hip bones. This keeps the belts from riding up and the body from submarining. The reason those belts are DOT approved is the buckle. It looks just like a new car push button buckle. Just what rescue people are looking for if they have to get you out of the car. SCCA used to allow them for track day events. No idea what NHRA has to say... They had inertia lock devices, but I don't know if they still do. These allowed you to move around in the car just like in new cars. And they locked up with very small decelerations. I'm planning on using them in the Whatever project if they are still available in the near future.
Sometimes. Depends on the customer. Ive seen ins pay off on rides wrecked on tracks. I’ve fixed several. Also seen em not pay.
Not quite the same but my avatar was insured with Shannons for theft or damage while in transit to and from events as was the race trailer. The racecar was covered up until I entered the staging lanes or after the return road.
When it comes to sanctioning body roll bar specs and general safety rules, most are written in blood.
Four-point harnesses with inertia reels are not unknown in light aircraft installations. Interestingly, the shoulder straps are often mounted to the aircraft's roof, contrary to the common requirement in racing rules that the shoulder straps should mount lower than the driver's shoulders. The anticipated emergency situations are, of course, very different. I found this description of the Schroth ASM feature: "Schroth ASM stands for 'Anti Sub-Marining' - a feature built into street harnesses that prevents the occupant from sliding under the lap belt in a crash (submarining). In a race car this is achieved by using a sub-strap (crotch belt) that mounts to the floor and is routed through the racing seat to the buckle. That's not possible or safe to do on a factory street seat. Schroth's solution is ingeniously simple and has proven effective in testing and the real world: ASM is an extra few inches of belt that is folded along the inside shoulder belt and hidden under a plastic cover. In a frontal accident the extra belt length is released and allows one side of your body to fall further forward than the other side. This causes your torso to twist, which prevents you from sliding under the lap belt. The ASM is on the right shoulder for a driver and the left shoulder for a passenger (in a LHD vehicle). This also has the benefit of forcing each occupant away from each other. ASM is a standard feature in all Rallye 3/4 and Quick Fit harnesses, as well as on the special Profi II ASM belt. The system is redundant in a Competition harness since those are designed with a sub-strap."So it's basically an engineered stretch zone, like a reverse crumple zone.
Hello, HAMB era hot rods? If the goal is to have one that looks the part, there are no qualms about the style of the build as per 1959-60 builds. Anything that was supported to the frame and covered the driver/passenger seems ok. Sometimes, the single point roll bar was strictly for the driver in his position of a coupe/roadster or off to one side. But a street purpose hot rod was ok to not have a roll bar other than it was welded to the frame. The rules did not mention that a gas coupe or sedan + street roadsters/RPU trucks had to have a roll bar as they were stock street legal hot rods. So a designation has to be made. If today’s hot rod had to have a roll bar, a dual bar cage is not HAMB rules appropriate. Then again, you may not be able to run certain events. But, at least you will be designated HAMB appropriate. Thank goodness for safety inspection technicians. The modern day roll bar requirements are for the safety of the drivers. In the old days, it was the same. If your head was under the point of the roll cage, then it met the safety rules. These days, no way it would pass. Jack Chrisman in Ed Losinski’s Hemi FED checking on his opponent in the next lane… roll bar? Isn’t there one back there above my head?? H&H Garage... Tets Ishimaru Supercharged MEL FED race car Jnaki In 1959-60, the safety standards were created for the racers. By today’s standards, not even close…
It could depend on the installation. Incorrectly mounted or installed belts may be worse than none, I'm not really sure; but I do recall a local organization that hosts track days at local road race tracks; and if you've installed 4-point belts they state the car will have to pass inspection. Factory installed 3-point belts are fine and need no inspection. Not really the same thing as your comment, but I think it shows that how the belts are installed is important. Or he's just a dick.... That comment and the post by @DDDenny about the belts mounted to the seats instead of the floor reminded me of a prior discussion we had around here on whether it's best to mount the belts to the floor or to the frame. In the case of an accident where the body is sheared off the frame it would truly suck to be strapped to the frame! I'd rather be strapped to the body as it bounced away; though I guess you're unlikely to survive that severe of a crash in any case. Terms can do that. I attended training with Mack more than a few years ago, on their MP series of engines, and the trainer told us they don't use the term "firewall" to refer to that section of metal that separates the engine area from the passenger compartment. He was serious, "don't call it a firewall". The term makes lawyers and marketing people nervous, it's like you're acknowledging the potential for fire damage, which could be held against them in a lawsuit. I don't recall the term he used, but the class all got a kick out that and making jokes about it during the several days of training.
That's really the rules for some sanctioning bodies? I thought it was pretty common knowledge that shoulder belt mounts need to be elevated above the level of the shoulders to prevent compression damage during an accident, which can lead to severe shoulder and spinal injuries.
NHRA rules, shoulder belts will be mounted level to the shoulders, and up to 4" below. I mount them 4" below.
show me a racing type harness that has a DOT rating before making a statement like that. Not saying that they will target you for a harness type system, but if they are writing you up for many infractions because you were acting a fool, they could write you up for not wearing a DOT seat belt even tho you had the harness on--- laws have strict interpretation, Dont like it, you are given the opportunity to fight it to court
https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/want-to-put-a-racing-harness-in-your-car-read-this-first lot of the junk built here never came with belts from the OE anyway. I’m could care less about the seat belt ticket if it keeps me from launching thru the windshield. I’ve never seen someone get a ticket at a parking lot or track event. I have watched the cops do burnouts at some “cruise in”. They were also nice enough to let us help them test their radar guns a time or two.
If my shop installed a roll bar in Johnnys street car, and Johnny lost control on a wet curve going to fast, and got hurt or killed, who do you think the family is going to go after??? Now I have bent many roll bars for people---its a service and not a product and they have to find a way to have it installed/welded. Some may not like my position on this, But its me who has to deal with your family when you are injured or dead
Friend of mine re-skins old NASCAR chassis with old sheet metal Uses the vin for the tag. Cruises em on the street. Sounds fun
I seem to recall that one of the guys on Drag Week kept his original 3 pt seat belt (in his off topic later model car) and used it on street drives, but used a 5 point racing harness at the drag strip. But all this talk about DOT approved seat belts, is kind of off topic, isn't it?
Looked into them, glorified OEM with standard buckles and not a 3" webbing latch and link or turnbuckle as most of us would call a racing harness
Sure they are. Might not fit your rules but they fit some others We have harnesses in our school supported “race cars” that top out about 40mph. Lots of different forms of racing and automotive competition. I had a racing harness in my first ever competition built ride. A down hill beast built out of an ironing board. The safety harness was made from webbing from an old lawn chair. Bent nail mounting. Was perfectly legal by the sanctioning body (my dad) and worked great. We even tested it. The sanctioning body classified the pipe that went from the floor to the roof in my bus as roll over protection. Factory lap belt = racing harness A helmet and radiator puke tank and I’m a race car driver.
my 34 ran 9.57 at the HAMB drags ..........ok, ok. That was in the 8th mile. I built a 4 point roll bar that's bolted to the frame. It sits well back from my head. I use it because it looks cool and it should help in case of a roll-over accident. I never gave a thought about it's legality but I did take my insurance guy for a ride in it. He's a car guy and never said a word about the bar. I also use 3" race car lap belts with the flip-over latches.
When ya build em tight to the body and attach the B-posts and package tray area to em. it becomes a anti-coupe crack body stiffning device. Or a body wood retrofit. Tomato potato “Sir is that a roll bar” No officer, it’s designed to stiffen the body to prevent cracks and keep doors in alignment. Plus the x brace holds the spare tire
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