Ryan's Article: Tradition Takes Sacrifice

Yowsa, Ryan! I didn't see anyone that started a thread for this yet and I know people will want to discuss it.

My take? It's spot on. In a few well thought out sentences, Ryan has obliterated the "what is traditional and what is a rat rod" threads or debates.

But before you think that I agree because I'm one of the traditional elitists- I drive a 4 door '54 Chevy everyday with power disc brakes. I shaved the handles and put remote controlled latches in. It's half done in my mind but I'm already having a blast with it. I am totally aware of what class my car is in if it were limited to just the Rat Rod or Traditional groups. But really, it's neither rat rod nor traditional. It's not Hot Rod or Kustom. It is just a fun old car that I got to work on with my Dad. I have the passion and interest. I just simply don't have the time or funds to go pure period correct. That doesn't mean that I don't aspire to that level one day. We all have to start somewhere.

The price inflation isn't necessarily from more people "taking over" or going mainstream. It could be that these cars are finally being appreciated as fine art by those with the means to invest in it. Maybe instead of the prices being too high, they're actually getting around to finding their real value?

 

...I'm drawin' a blank here...

 

I guess I was excited for someone else to put into words what I've thought for a long time. I hope nobody takes this as me trying to pick a fight. I'd like to think I love cars enough to appreciate every camp's (from fanatical traditional to the newbie "rat rodder") perspective. Just like Ryan obviously does as well.

On the price of parts thing, I was just trying to be a little more philosophical about it. It really could just be people with more money than passion (or sense) trying to buy their way into a sub-culture.

 

Sacrafice for some- a TON of cash for others.

 

I'm guessing this has been festering around in the bosses head for a while now...

Very well said. I know I'll never build a traditional hot rod... nor will I try. As much as I love the idea of creating a perfect 50s era hot rod I don't have the time, skill, or money to do it.

I love to look them and will never fully appreciate what it takes to create one. So I'll do my thing with a nod to the past.

 

The only thing that I find lacking in the "traditional" camp is the whole concept of hot rods being hot rods and not relics.
What I mean its nice to see a few truelly traditional car but then you got alot of them with the same overall design and it gets old quick.
I think sometimes people forget they where creative back then and if you have a idea that wasnt seen alot in the past but there was the ability to do it or had the materials to do it I dont see why someone should be chastized for not being "period" correct when in fact I think THAT is the true spirit of what they did.
The cars Im drawn to are function before form but odd thing is that if you look at a bunch of old land speed cars there is so much design in them it'll make you cry how beautiful they really are.
They didnt have the internet back then they didnt have wide spread media coverage. Not everything that was designed or created was ever seen by us.
I mean sure billet wasnt around but who says you cant create a custom sand cast aluminum peice that isnt cookie cutter traditional but functions and not be traditional?
Its as much as a socialogical study as it is an art to be involved in this part of the car world.
Its very much like a religion...

 

We are a cult.

I am trying to build a hotrod.

 

I've lost track of the bench race conversations I've had on this very subject as I'm sure many of us have...

I'll continue helping in lightening those who truely want to know, but there is more to it than the price of parts or the labels given to what we do.

Keeping this in mind...listen to those guys who've been at this longer than the rest of us.


Well said Ryan...Long live the H.A.M.B.

 

Ryan's article should be required reading before anyone is allowed to make their first post.

I'll never have a period-perfect car... but I think it's important that we know what period-perfect traditional is... and certainly repect those who make the sacrifices to build a correct car. Then we can make the sacrifices and perhaps compromises on our own projects and have real reasons for doing so. (Like the fact that I'd rather have a traditionally-inspired car on the road than a half-done correct one in the garage.)

I was talking with my new neighbor late the other night... we got talking about "perceived history" versus what really was. (I'm only 34, so I don't consider myself an expert by a long shot.) It was brought up that there are many who seemed to think that <fill in the blank> was "just like the 50's", when I have seen nothing in vintage photos or anything that would support that thinking. Specifically, we mentioned full-sleeve tattoos (especially on girls), and ridiculously low cars... I'm not saying those things are wrong in and of themselves, but if you tell me it's just like the 40s/50s, you're gonna have to back it up to make me believe you.

 

Period perfection aside, I like a car that's built with the long view: one that will be just as cool 5, 10, 20 or 50 years down the road. You sorta know it when you see it: a car where the stance and proportions are nailed, and you know it will never have to be "updated."

A lot of so-called rat rods are attention-grabbing, but it's through shock value... I'd venture that in 5 years a lot of them will seem as dated as a monochrome pink pro-street rods with splash graphics and square headlights.

The reason anally perfect "traditional rods" work is because they have already stood the test of time... a part-for-part clone of the Niekamp roadster will never go out of style.

That said, "traditional" still leaves a lot of leeway for innovation (witness the Kirk Hammett coupe, Rolf's coupe, the Lunar Lander, etc). Disk brakes, shmisk brakes, it's more about understanding the elements and putting them together in the right way.

 

Damn kid, you are something. No matter how many times I go to this site, I always find something that makes my blood boil. Sometimes because of something that has me cheering loud enough to wake my girl in the next room, sometimes because I'm so pissed I can't even stand to be in the same room as the computer.
But this article... I like.
I have been into "older style" hot rods for quite some time now. The project I have been working on lately is different. I got tired of walking into shows instead of driving so I decided to build a car as fast and as cheap as I could. The first thing: rims and tires. Choice: whitewalls and steels. Why: because I already had them.
Now here's the funny part, as soon as people saw the tires on the project they start walking around it telling me what "didn't fit with the traditional theme." Theme? Theme? Who the hell said I had to have a theme? If anything the theme was cheap, fast, and don't break any rules that would keep me out of the pile-up.
It just made me a little sad that so many people can't tell a real tradional car vs. just an old jalapy.

 

I can't say I was ever "there" in the 50s, or I know what the hell I'm talking about even now. I am working on my first rod, and even still it's a Brookville. So, I am WAY wet behind the ears, so to speak.

But that said, I believe Ryan's initial thought is just a preface to a way of thinking. When I see how media views this or any other hobby, it's usually with an eye for making money, or getting it down to its lowest denominator. And I want to vomit. Look no further than the Von Dutch logo travesty to see what I mean. What's that MTV show out now? Excuse me, I have to rinse out my mouth now.

I think the initial thought was that we gravitated to this hobby because it held something we love. Might be the ability to construct something. Might be the way someone resurrects a rusted hulk, so it's a gratifying thing. It might be the way another "car guy" marvels in the glow of a prefect paint job, and tells the painter "that's one helluva job. It's the craftsmanship and admiration we have for each others blood sweat and tears.

You'll never get that stuff in a mall, and you'll never get that on TV. It also happens in motorcycle circles, boat circles, and aircraft clubs. We all know that, and in a lot of ways, we all respect these branches of similar thought. And I have seen a lot of O/T discussions on wooden boats and choppers that get to this same vein. It begins as a hobby, and ends up as an obsession.

 

nuff said!

 

I like that clarification Ryan -- I was thinking "ok, 80% of HAMB'ers here are out" but to put it in perspective of what a rat rod is not, that's what makes the introspective good. Most of the ones I've seen are being slapped together in hopes of a quick buck . . . little regard for anything more or less. A car isn't yours if it's not got your soul into it . . . a vision for what it can be, because it's never going to be done . . . . any true car guy will admit to that one. The difference (and key to HAMB appreciation) is that the cars we look at and admire were done 40-60+ years by people building whatever they had into fast or stylish rides.

 

holy shit, that is a great editorial. thanks from a traditional elitist.

 

Great article!
Its a shame to see this Greatest of all Car Forums wander off into types of cars that were never a hotrod and were never customized.
A HAMBer actually told me he likes thie HAMB "because it accepts ANY kind of car". His words. Woah!
Station wagons, Falcons, Comets, 48-50 Plymouths and Ramblers, 64 Fords with visors, lowriders, Dodge and International trucks, and oohing and ahhing about straight 8 flatheads and slant 6s???
It seems that some young guys are confused, thinking anything old is cool. Ok, but old Ramblers were NEVER EVER considered hotrods by ANYONE. They were dull stodgy SLOW cars for old dull stodgy people. Same with 46-54 Dodges and Plymouths.
International and Dodge trucks have ALWAYS been VERY ugly. And slow.
(Actually the Dodge trucks were good looking until about 1935)

It seems that a lot of guys are not willing to admit that most traditional hotrods were Fords, Model T, Model A, and all the flathead years. By the end of the flathead era, the new hotrods were V-8 Chevys and all the old Fords with Chevy V-8 engines. All other brand cars were undesirable. That lasted til the Muscle car era. Thats the way it was.
Most street driven hotrods (and drag strip cars) were home built. Virtually none were built by businesses. Homebuilt hotrods were and still are the backbone of the hotrod world. Anyone who gets a car paid for by daddy or built by a place of business misses the best part of hotrodding.
The sacrifice is the time and work and searching for the parts.
That sacrifice is also the thrill and the reward.

 

...thanks for the link, cause I didn't have a clue as to what article you were talkin' about.

 

quote from chrisntx:..... "Anyone who gets a car paid for by daddy or built by a place of business misses the best part of hotrodding.
The sacrifice is the time and work and searching for the parts.
That sacrifice is also the thrill and the reward."..............I gotta call bs on some of this statement. I for one, have had the pleasure of finding every real Ford part on my car(not the stuff we had to buy from 1-800 places), and yes, it was a lot of time-consuming work. I was there 1-3 times a week checkin' on progress, or tellin' 'em what/how I wanted it to look like...I didn't miss any of the fun of the build...I got to see it come to life before my eyes(and I can tell you MY business suffered for it)...I just didn't get any of my blood on her...I know what yer thinkin', but I've built my own cars before, when I had to...and I realize for the most part you're talkin' about gold chainers.

 

Yeah, I get it now! I was worried my original post was just too stupefying for words. Oh and, lest I was misunderstood, I don't ever intend on making a 4 door '54 Chevy "period correct" even if I had the all the time and funds in the world. That would just be a concourse restoration wouldn't it?

 

In 1957 I drove a '35 Ford 2 door with a modified flathead and mechanical brakes. If I would have called it a hot rod then, I would have been laughed out of town. A friend had a '40 Ford Coupe with a 331 Chrysler engine. Ditto for him. A guy in the neighborhood had a chopped, channeled fenderless Chrysler powered '32 Ford coupe. He could call his car a hot rod. If I order a TCI stage four chassis, put a Dearborn Deuce body on it with a flathead decorated with new reproduction go-fast goodies, new steel wheels, repro hubcaps, black paint, etc. do I have a "traditional" hot rod? Seems to me that to truly have a traditional hot rod you have to restore one. Or start with a barn find or restoration. You better not use any new parts. Most of the true "Hot Rods" of my youth were poorly constructed compared to today's build quality. They were "RATTY RODS". They were difficult to drive, handled poorly and were unreliable. If that's what you regard as hot rod nirvana, you can have it. Yes, there are rat rods that push the limit. Don't Foose, Coddington and Trepanier push the limits in the other direction? Give 'em a break, they're starting with practically nothing and creating nasty looking machines they are willing to drive. If you're happy driving your restored or unrestored old hot rod or a replication of same, fine, enjoy it. Hope you have as much fun with it as the rat rodders seem to have. I love traditional rods, especially historic ones. Just seems in my old age I've become too tolerant of other styles of rods to box myself in so tightly.

 

I was around in the 50's (watching ... young adult) and driving in the early 60's before the Muscle Cars ... and I agree ...

Most of the " above stuff " listed was " also rans " ... hand me downs or ... " just could not do any better " Cars ... The really cool guys had early Fords ... 32 to 34 and the 39 - 40 Ford coupes.

Back then ... as now ... some folks wanted to play but would not ... or could not step up to the plate ... so they had the dull, old stodgy stuff and used JC Whitney catalog to add fake dual pipes, coon tails, curb feelers and the big visors. Now they use the internet to try and convince folks the same stuff is cool.

The fast guys used Honest Charley and bought Eldebrock , Speed Gems, and Offenhauser.

Slightly different but not O/T ..
My uncle ran moonshine. He had a very fast and quick 40 Ford with a big flattie. I saw a 57 Chevrolet 2 door post just drive off ... from him one night. In less than 2 weeks ... he had a 57 Chevrolet 150 with a 283/270Hp of his own.

Tradition was going to get him in jail ... so he stepped up

 

"Just seems in my old age I've become too tolerant of other styles of rods to box myself in so tightly."

really?, I find my self being more in-tolerant of other styles lately.

 

Oh, if only it really were....

 

From Ryan: "I think the argument of self built versus shop built belongs somewhere else... That's another battle all together.

That said, I built most of my '38... Tardel is building all of my period a-coupe... Both have and will have a lot of me in them. I'm not so worried about what others see in either."



You gotta do what ya gotta do. I mean, some of us don't have 1) the TIME, 2) the SKILLS, or 3) the MONEY to get the car we want to drive. Sometimes you gotta pick two and take it from there. . . It's no different in doing a home renovation. I can do the plumbing, roofing, flooring and rough carpentry, but I HATE drywall.

Hire out what you need to, and do what you can yourself. Maybe it will take a bit longer, but it will be exactly what you want in the end.

 

I'm no expert on the subject...... shit, I wasn't even a twinkle in my dad's I yet when the "traditional" machines drove the streets. What exactly is traditional about the cars? Using rare or unique parts will make your car rare and/or unique but IMO the tradition is in the build and how "Joe Backyard" managed to make enough ponies to out run his buddies or on the rare ocassion the cops with what he had. If they couldn't find something, they made it, with pretty shitty tools none the less. How many of you grab to Oxy set to do a chop top instead of the MIG? The MIG is not real traditional. To what extreme do you take it? When does it stop being fun? I'll stick with the fun and keep the tradition of using what I got, out running my buddies..... and occasionally the cops. Just my 2 cents.

Hank

 

So What am I building? It sure ain’t a ‘rat-rod’!. I’m putting together my dream car from 1957 – a 6 cylinder Chevy that could run with the hot cars I saw circling my high school every afternoon, which were mostly 49-53 Fords with warmed-over flatheads (and we never called them ‘shoeboxes’ here in Penna). Why a 6 you ask? Because our family was Chevy people, not Ford or Plymouth. Why not a V-8 like a 265/283 or an Olds or a Buick? Simple, I couldn’t afford it, just like the flathead guys couldn’t afford an OHV engine.

So here I am putting together a 50 year old dream; a 50 Chevy Coupe with a 235, pop-up pistons, 3 carbs on an Offy manifold, Fentons, ‘Isky’ grind cam, Vertex mag (that would have been out of my budget back then!!) being pushed through a stock drive train. It’s also going to have a louvered hood (another 1957 budget-buster!) I’m doing almost all of the work myself, just like I would have in 57 because I had no money then, now it’s because I like to.

Were there OHV Fords? Yep, 2 Olds powered and one with a Caddy; all three had LaSalle gearboxes. V-8 powered early 50’s Chevies? Yep one with an Olds that served as the prototype Hurst Chey/Olds mounts (Hurst at the time was located in a little garage about 10 miles from our town).

Will my car be ‘period correct’? You betcha, but it will be My Period. Wheels?
Probably stock steel painted red. I know that’s been trashed here, but that was ‘cool’ at that time where I grew up. A lot of guys just painted a red stripe around the rim so it would show red outside the Moon discs or ‘Olds-style’ flippers. The 'stance' will be up in the front, even though that didn't really come along till the early 60's gassers.

Body work? Yep it will drive with primer spots for a while, because that was also ‘traditional’, mostly due to the lack of money to finish the paint. Interior will come last, just like it did back then, but remember, those interiors were only 5-10 years old back then, not 50 or 60 like now.

And what were the 'coolest' cars in my area at that time (late 50's)?

A 32 Ford 5-window with a 4 carbed Olds
A 36 Ford 5-window with a 3 carbed Buick
A 38 Chev coupe with an Olds - mever knew the details of the engine, it was the ultimate 'sleeper' street racer. It just appeared to challenge and defeat any big-motored stockers

As time moved on, I did get some quicker than average cars, no world champions (not even local), but I had fun and was able to hold my own by being careful about who I raced. But I never built that Chevy 6 I dreamed about, so now I am.

All of the above is just my $.02

 

I think there are some traditional hot rods that are cooler than the rat rods out there... and some rat rods that are cooler than the traditional hot rods out there.

It all depends on the talent of the builder.

Also... Traditional Hot Rods are more of an exercise in restoration that an exercise in hot rodding.

Whereas rat rods require a bit more creativity... this is due to the lack of unwritten rules that rat rod builders have to play by.

Traditional Hot Rods on the other hand play by a set of "rules" outlined by our forefathers. That's not to say that there is no creativity in a traditional rod, on the contrary... in a traditional hot rod the creativity is found in the parts that make up a whole...

in a rat rod, the creativity is in the whole.

I think they are ALL cool... and people should RELAX about the whole rat rod name. Believe me, it was HARD for me to do... but I finally gave in... and then realized...

Sam.

Sam.