I was looking at 4 speeds for my car and was wondering the differences between the muncie 4spd and saginaw 4spd. A rebuilt saginaw is way less than a muncie. Im on a budget so I was thinking saginaw. My motor is only 300HP. Any input is appreciated.
Gomez - I think the saginaws are fine if you aren't racing. I think saginaws have real low first and second and are more for truck duty. I had one in my 70 pick up and changed to a muncie and the muncie just had a better shifter position and you could wind out the gears further.
there are at least 4 different 1st gear ratios that came in the saginaw 4 spds. you can tell the ratio by the number of rings around the input shaft. 1 ring is a 2.54 0 rings is a 2.89 2 rings is a 3.11 3 rings is a 3.50 a quick way to tell what you are looking at. they were used in everything from trucks to vegas. also used in the corporate equivalent cars. you should be fine with the saginaw as long as your not sidestepping the clutch at 5 grand. jerry
I use the saginaw with a buick 300ci 200hp, and no problem, but i know the saginaw is light for an engine with lot of torque!
I'm guessing that you are using it for your '34. If so, you should be just fine. I had one im my '31 for a couple of years. It was a 3 groove with really low first gear. I broke two sets of wishbones and tore up an 8" with no problems from the tranny. I got a sweet deal on a Muncie, so I switched. But I still have the Saginaw and won't hesitate to use it in another project later on.
buzzard - do you think the muncie is better? what changed - I really can't remeber what the differences were since it was like 10 years ago when I did that swap
they used 'em in second generation camaro's too, so a mild small block shouldn't be much of a problem. they do seem to have a very w-i-d-e ratio, tho'...mf
The Saginaw is fine and different ratios are handy. If your car is not real heavy it will serve you well.I use em and am kinda rough on em with no trouble at all!
[ QUOTE ] buzzard - do you think the muncie is better? what changed - I really can't remeber what the differences were since it was like 10 years ago when I did that swap [/ QUOTE ] The cases on the Muncie are stronger for one thing. And the gears as well, I think. Muncies were used behind big blocks and performance engines. For a light car, I don't know if it as important as behind a 69 Chevelle. I'm not the expert, by any means. For the money difference, the Saginaws are a pretty good bargain. But the Muncie is a better transmission.
as a side note, if you need (and probably will) a shifter, if you have, or can find, a hurst assembly, you can order the 'installation' kit from summit. it'll include the rods and mounting plate, you just need to give them an application to work from. i used '78 camaro for my sag-equipped '62 biscayne, worked out fine, and costs about $100 (half of a whole new setup). mf
The Saginaw is a pretty tough tranny. The weak link in the is reverse. Your asking who is doing burnouts in reverse? It evidently happens alot because I've seen several of them with reverse torn up. The reason that so many guys say that they are geared so low is because there were so many more of the low geared ones produced for the small engined cars and there are just alot more of them out there. On the plus side,if you get one from a Vega you know that it has never been exposed to high HP abuse.
Saginaws are cast iron vs Muncies with their aluminum cases, so they're heavier, but in most cases the weight factor is a non-issue. The money you save running a Saginaw can be better spent elsewhere, and the lowly Saginaw is more than rugged enough for most street/strip applications...if you treat it well, it'll be good to you! Go with the Saginaw...they're plentiful and cheap...and more than up to the task.
yep, ran 1 in my old 56 chevy. 60 over 283, 11.6 pistons,tunnel ram, 4.88 gears,6000rpm launches/8000shifts, and slicks. NEVER broke it. axles on the other hand....
Here's my experience. I had a '59 El Camino with a 348 and a Muncie M22. I blew the gearbox up very soon after I bought the car, I replaced it with a Saginaw 3 speed (no synchro on first) that I gave hell to for a few years. The Saginaw never blew up, and the difference in acceleration was negligible. I've had a Saginaw 4 speed in my '54 Chevy with a hopped up 235 for many, many years and it's been great. You can draw your own conclusions.
You blew up an M22? Holy crap! Honestly, I think a Saginaw would be fine in a street car (Fat Hack has a post on this subject in the techomatic). You can grenade a Muncie if you try (sometimes if you don't) but any 4-speed's gonna last decently if you don't torture it. Does anybody even use manual gearboxes for competition anymore? Road racers, maybe. They're just so much more fun.
I have a Saginaw in my truck, no complaints. I've used them in a few other cars over the years. Gonna put one in my roadster because I have it and can't afford a muncie...
now i know a guy that has went through a stack of saginaws, and i think my 4 speed swap will involve his last saginaw, as he sold his car to his brother, one of my two very best friends... i think his problems arose from 8000 rpm launches in a 70 chevelle, most of these behind a 400 ci SBC forged in the pits of hell. as i don't intend such craziness in my cruiser of a 65 impala, i think i'll be fiiiiiine. coolest donut i ever saw, if not the coolest "baker's dozen" of donuts was when this dude and his buddy decided to leave the main drag here in zanesville in style. they both went around and around, simultaneously so many times that i think they got bored going around in circles. shoulda seen the cloud of smoke, wafted across the 5 lanes of cars from the parking lot we were in and damn near shut down traffic. as far as the wide ratio goes, man, it can't get any wider than my little powerglide! i can't wait to have 4 sweet spots where the engine pulls nicely. it oughta be a whole different world...
Check out 5speed.com or 5speeds.com can't remeber which. Anyway they sell repop M22 for around $1800. The saginaw was used in chevs until the mid-60s when higher horse power configurations came out. The muncie was used from then until I think 1975 when smog killed the muscle cars. Chev then went to the super T10 because the power was no longer an issue. I've been debating the same problem. With 300hp I think the saginaw would be fine.
[ QUOTE ] The saginaw was used in chevs until the mid-60s when higher horse power configurations came out. The muncie was used from then until I think 1975 when smog killed the muscle cars. [/ QUOTE ] Nope, Saginaws were used all the way through the 70's. If you got a 4 speed Camaro in the mid to late 70's it was a Saginaw. I have a '74 and a '76. They were also used in Vegas and Monzas and Novas, oh my....
[ QUOTE ] there are at least 4 different 1st gear ratios that came in the saginaw 4 spds. you can tell the ratio by the number of rings around the input shaft. 1 ring is a 2.54 0 rings is a 2.89 2 rings is a 3.11 3 rings is a 3.50 a quick way to tell what you are looking at. they were used in everything from trucks to vegas. also used in the corporate equivalent cars. you should be fine with the saginaw as long as your not sidestepping the clutch at 5 grand. jerry [/ QUOTE ] Is that on the smooth part or the splined part at the end?
they are little grooves around the spline on the input shaft. easy to see if the unit is out of the car. jerry
Saginaws have a smaller input shaft bearing. That is useally what goes out first !! If you can afford it go with the muncie !!
Hmmm, didnt they use Saginaw's in Vegas too? Maybe try a Borg Warner ST-10 (Super T-10). They have aluminum cases, use the big output yoke, and are VERY strong (like a Muncie). I'm using one behind a 454 in my 51 Chevy. Average prices: Muncie M-22, $1800 Borg Warner ST-10. $700 Saginaw, $200
A potential sagiaw benefit: If you can find an overdrive Sag 3 speed used around 1969 in Chevelles, a pretty rare part, its BW overdrive can be easily transplanted to the back of a Saginaw fourspeed. The results are pretty obvious--you can now run drag gears and still be able to cruise, or just enjoy the absurd abundance of gear ratios.
I have run Saginaw in many tri-fives and Chevelles--up to 350 hp with no problems. They do make what they call a heavy duty type with a larger input shaft bearing. Still found at swap meets relatively cheap.
The transmission that GM used until '63 was the Borg Warner 4spd. Until then there wasn't enough volume for GM to produce their own. The 4spd became REALLY popular at that point so it was an economic move on GM's part to produce their own 4spd. Frank
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