Projects SBF Gurus Input Appreciated

It's pointless to argue dyno results, but then again who drives a dyno?...

Finding a 450 Holley may be a bit hard, swap meets and eBay will be your best chance if you have no luck here. Even a mid-60s small-block 2100 series Autolite 4 barrel will work well, these get overlooked as 'performance' carbs but work great on street motors when properly set up. These also make a great 'stealth' set up...

Don't get me wrong; a Holley 600 is a good carb, Holley's sold a zillion of them over the years and even Ford used these as 'service replacements' for older OEM carbs, regardless of the OEM CFM rating. But like any 'universal' part, while it will work in all these applications, that doesn't mean it's the best choice either...

 

You might want to hang out here to learn more about the SBF's: http://www.network54.com/Forum/119417/ and www.sbftech.com 100% all Ford sites

 

Main physical difference is the carb height; on some applications, the rpm intakes will cause issues with hood clearance. If you have room for the taller intakes (and you do on your Falcon), it will make more power because of the straighter/longer runners, but again, the gains will come mostly in the upper RPM range. As long as you stay with a dual-plane intake with an automatic trans, most any will work. You may have cold drivability issues with the air-gap as these don't have any crossover heat into the manifold and Fords are notoriously cold-blooded. And to a certain extent, runner volume matters as larger runners will have lower velocity; this will show up as the torque curve moving up/down at a given RPM.

Contrary to the manufacturers claims, there isn't a ton of power difference between the various brands/models. The few 'open' dyno tests (one motor, just changing manifolds) that have been done usually results in a HP spread of less than 10 HP between them, and that's including OEM intakes (given that carb height is the same or close).

For a street car with an auto trans, I'd probably get either the Performer RPM or a Weiand Stealth.

 

could be cumulative effect of using no zddp SM & SN oil. It's needed for flat tappet cam but not rollers, another reason to go roller.

 

That was a roller cam and the lifters are equally pitted. Interesting on the differences between the intakes but I dont really believe theres a need to swap between any of the three for a mild build. I will see about picking up an autolite 4100 with mild cfm ratings.

 

Well, that's interesting....

 

To the OP:
Your criteria are decent fuel mileage,reasonable cost to build,and roughly 300hp,and that should be easy to reach.

I have to disagree a bit with Steve's insistence that 600's are too big for a 302 and 'mushy' in the throttle response department.The torqer intake was where you were losing all your driveability,and the extremely small carb was a good way to gain back some throttle response in that case.
I've done the single plane vs dual plane comparison on a 5.0L Ford,and let me tell you,a mild 302" motor does NOT like a single plane intake,and will feel like its lost 100 cubic inches compared to a Performer RPM in around town driving.

If I was you,and trying to build a useable,low cost,300+ hp engine,I would keep it extremely simple:
PISTONS:
- Cast or hypereutectic pistons are FINE if you don't plan to dramatically increase the performance level of this engine later.Lets face it,if you want a snarlier engine later,you will probably build another one while you still have this one in the car.
On the Summit page cast are $116,forged are $280.Save your money for a meaner motor later.
CAM:
- look for a used FRPP E303 or X303 roller cam on Craig's list.You can get them for $30-$50 bucks now,because according to most Internet 'builders',the cams which a few short years ago were hyped as the hot setup,are now suddenly 'junk'.lol
There are better cams out there,but they cost a BUNCH more,and at this hp level are not worth the added expense.These cams will get you where you want to be hp-wise,although for fuel mileage I would stick to the E303,only going with the X if you can't find an E.Also,since you need new lifters,stick with stock Ford parts,as they work well,and can be scored for around $119 bucks.
HEADS:
-If you want to stay really tight on the budget,and you have some mechanical aptitude and and skill with a die grinder,you can get BIG hp increases out of the stock heads,with just a little work invested.Check out the sbf beginners porting thread if you are interested.
If home porting is not for you,keep an eye out on Craig's list for somebody who is upgrading from their AFR 165's and see if you can score those for a decent price.Anything with small runners and reasonably sized valves will be a big improvement over unproved stock heads.
Again,if you port your existing stock heads,its FREE,but if you can score a good deal on lightly used aftermarket heads in good condition,that's a great way to go too.
CARB:
-I would go with a 600cfm Holley List # 1850.They are affordable,and you can get a good used one,once again,on Craig's list,for next to nothing.These are all over the place for $50,and with a lighter secondary spring (buy a kit from your local speed shop,they are only about $10),you can tune it for the secondaries to open when you need them to.
I have run this carb on many 302s,and it has always worked well for me.
INTAKE:
-I wouldn't use the Performer,as it's basically just an aluminum version of a stock one.It will net you a weight savings,but no improvement in performance.
I would go with the Performer RPM as it won't lose any power or driveability down low,but it will just plain work 'better' across the board.More performance everywhere.
HEADERS:
-This is one area where I would definitely advise against buying the cheapest product.Cheap headers never fit right,they always leak,are a constant pain in the ass,and will make you miserable.Spend a little extra here and enjoy the car a LOT more.
You don't have to spend a fortune,but look for ones that have the thickest flanges,as they are less prone to warp and leak.
Make sure you get ones that fit your chassis,but if 5.0L parts fit,they can usually be found for a pretty good deal used.
IGNITION:
-This is another area where spending a little money is a good idea.It doesn't have to be much though.A stock Ford Duraspark ignition works great,just make sure its a good tight used distributor with no slop in the shaft,or pick up a re manufactured one from the parts store.Cheaper than MSD,OE quality.Works for me.
The spot to spend a bit of time and money,is to have a local shop tweak it with springs and bushings to get the advance curve right.This is money well spent.
Any shop with the skills to tune your distributor should also be able to handle setting your carb up to run right.
GEARS:
-I would go with pretty steep gears if you're going to stick with the AOD.I would say a minimum of 3.73,which doesn't seem like the fuel mileage would be great,but with the overdrive trans,you should be fine.

Basically,if I was doing it myself,and trying to make your goals on a super tight budget,I would build it like this:

- .030" over cast rebuilder pistons
- used E303 cam with new valve springs,shimmed to spec
- new FRPP lifters
- reman'd or good used Duraspark distributor with bushings and springs
- Performer RPM intake
- Holley 1850 600cfm set up by shop that re-works distributor
- home ported stock heads with good valve job,stock rockers or good used roller rockers.(install bigger valves if you can afford it)
- ARP rod bolts
- ARP oil pump driveshaft *NOTE: I use these in EVERY 289/302 I build,as even on stock motors this is a weak point.
At $20 bucks its cheap insurance.
- clean and re use stock pushrods
- a decent set of headers,good used ones if they're available,but the best ones you can afford.
- new standard volume oil pump (high volume is a waste of money,and just eats up horsepower)
- new stock replacement timing set
- new gaskets,rings,and bearings
-3.70 gears (I guess they would be 3.80 in an 8")

You don't have to spend much money to reach your goals,just keep an eye on the local classifieds for deals,and find a local machine shop you trust,and a shop to help you tune the carb and ignition.If there is a local shop with a chassis Dyno that specializes in 5.0L Fords,that's probably a good bet.

Also,when you're getting the short block together,there is power to be found by making sure the pistons are at a "zero deck heigh",or flush with the block at TDC,and not down slightly in the bore.You can even go slightly above the deck,as a FelPro head gasket compressed thickness is .038",so you have room.It tightens up the 'quench'area,improves combustion,and will make the engine run stronger and more efficiently.This will bring up you hp AND your fuel mileage.Its a win win.
Just be sure that you don't end up with piston to valve clearance issues.You should be fine,but just be careful when putting the engine back together.Im running a 5.0L with the X cam and milled 289 heads right now,so you should be fine,but double check just in case.

Scott





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If you can find a good rebuilt Autolite 4100 that doesn't have a warped baseplate GET IT!
Those Autolites are superior carburetors,and you will NOT be disappointed.Also,you can get the larger 1.12" Venturi (600cfm) carbs from 390 engines for peanuts,and they work great.They use annular discharge boosters,so they have maintain a strong signal and fantastic throttle response.
Autolite 4100's are a perfect example of having your cake and eating it too

Scott


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More reading? http://www.mre-books.com/engine/fordsmallblock.html

 

I have that one Jeff,and I would also recommend it.Some of the information is pretty old,but it provides a really good overview of what's available,what used to be the hot setup,and some low buck options.

Scott


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Everyone who has built an engine has their own theories and philosophies about the "right" parts to use, and it usually boils down to what worked for them. My feelings are that the biggest boost you can give a sbf is in the breathing dept. and heads are the way to get there. With aluminum heads prices being as reasonable as they are today there is little reason to run iron heads unless you just have them and don't have the money to spend on others.

I also agree that 600 cfm's is not too much for a good sbf. I had a basically stock 5.0 engine in my Jeep pickup (except for cam, intake, and ignition) and ran a 600 Edelbrock on a Performer intake. Drove it in traffic for 5 years and surprised a lot of cars at lights. The 331 in my 27 is running two out of the box 600 Edelbrocks and the plugs burn a nice light tan color.

For what you are describing you want this motor to do I would suggest something like Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, a 9 to 1 compression ratio (with forged pistons if you can afford the slight difference in cost) a 600 cfm carb on an aluminum intake, and a cam one step up from the E303. (I am running an X303 and LOVE it........but it needs deeper gears than you are wanting).

By contrast, my one Son is running a 306 with worked 351 heads, an X303 cam, and two Edelbrock 600's in his T and even with 2.79 gears/3000 stall it pulls like mad from a light. So there is no single perfect combo, just what happens to work for you.

Don

 

It's funny that you say that about the X cam Don.
I am running one in a 2700lb o/t 66 Ford,and I absolutely love it.
My combo is:

Stock 5.0L forged piston short block with ARP rod bolts,ported 289 heads with 1.94/1.60 valves,X cam,ported victor junior intake,650cfm Holley,MSD distributor.

The only change I plan to make is to ditch the Vic jr,as it revs like mad on the top end,but it just kills all that thick midrange torque the X303 likes to make.
A switch to a ported Performer RPM should have it back to feeling a little more punchy in the lower/mid rpms like it should,but not choke it on the top end.

Scott


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Yep, I know a lot of people say there are better cams than the Ford Racing lineup of X cams, but Ford did a lot of research IMO and came up with some really good grinds in there. My X will idle down to 1000 rpms in high gear and pull away as smooth as a stock cam, and at 2000 it comes in like a supercharger.

Next time I am going to try the Z cam to see how I like it.

Don

 

That Z cam looks like it would have just enough of a boost in lift and a couple degrees more duration,combined with a bit tighter lobe separation,to make it a real little stick of dynamite in a 302.
It looks like it would run a lot like the X,only with a little 'more' of everything.

Scott


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Not unless they've quit retarding them. Aftermarket type on this.

 

Thank you Jeff for the articles and thank you Scott for the very informative write up. I watch craigslist like a hawk and that is where I have done very well. I am getting a pretty good direction here though I have two more questions currently. What are the dangers of running or what should I be looking for on a used roller cam say E303 or such from craigslist or ebay? And two as something I have read really bad reviews on Holley 302 heads dont interest me much but there are some brand new ones I could pick up for around $200.

 

460 timing sets are,but a stock replacement 5.0 timing set is good.


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When looking at a used roller cam just make sure it has the proper numbers on the end,as I have had guys try to pass off a stock 5.0 cam as an X cam before.

As for condition:Just look for obvious red flags,such as rust,pitting,gouges,Knicks in the journals or lobes,or other obvious physical damage.
It should look pretty much mike it's brand new.If it has any visible flaws I would pass on it,as there are plenty of good ones out there,so there's no sense wasting time and money on a questionable one.

As for the Holley heads,I haven't had any experience with them,so I can't really say one way or the other.

I'm looking forward to seeing your engine go together!

Scott


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Powrshftr is correct on the 600 and the single plane.. low/mid range rpm driving is not what the single plane was originally designed for.. You can run them, but expect some trade off lower in the rpm scale.
IF you cant afford aluminum, World products makes a very good steel head.

 

No, I'm not 'insisting' that a 600 is too big for any 302, just that depending on the specific combination, it can be bigger than needed. Yes, I know the single-plane intake isn't the best street intake choice (used because it was free, looked 'racey', and the car had a manual trans that could tolerate it), but the carb doesn't know what intake it's on, it's simply looking for a vacuum signal. And I wouldn't characterize it as 'extremely' small as the motor ran the same to 6K, only above that did it start to lay down. As you pointed out, it did improve throttle response and would do the same on a dual-plane intake as long as you're not spinning the motor fast enough and/or have heads good enough to need the additional flow.

Hot rodders are notorious for over-carbing street motors. The eye-opener for me was in the early 70s when I picked up a '67 cougar GT 4-speed with a blown motor. Through a series of serendipitous events in parts acquiring, I put together a 454" FE that I installed (427 .030 over block/428 SCJ heads & internals/sidewinder intake/headers/'mild' solid cam). All the local 'gurus' recommended a 850 Holley which I dutifully bought. Motor made a ton of power, absolutely no complaints. Then somebody stole the carb...

Not having the money right then to buy another, I dug the 735 Holley off the 390GT out and put that on as a stop-gap. That transformed the car into a tire-melting monster, to the point you could no longer just stab the gas with abandon because the response was so fast. I never did replace the 850....

I've even used the 390 CFM 4-barrel Holley on other-wise stock 289s and 302s that had 2 barrels with good results, although these really are too small if any other performance mods are done.

 

And to throw a bit more 'fuel on the fire' (pun intended LOL), I'll point out that the NHRA stock and super stock guys using the 225HP version of the 289 are turning some pretty low ETS (low 10s in SS, one guy even broke into the 9s but he gave up on the combo because connecting rod life wasn't too good at 10,000 RPM! ) using the class-required 'extremely small' OEM 465 CFM Autolite carb. Granted, these carbs have been 'scienced' to the max but modifications to increase the CFM are specifically disallowed.

As the saying goes, size isn't everything....

 

They do make those little 1.08 Autolites work good,don't they?
But they have no choice,as they are mandated by the rules,as are the stock valve sizes.

But if they were given the option,I bet every one of those guys would run a bigger carb and better valve sizes in the heads.
They only stick with them because they're bound to them by the rule book.

Scott

It's interesting that you had that experience with a big inch FE,as we had the opposite experience with a near stock 70 428 SCJ in an o/t Cougar.
It seemed kinda soft with the stock 735 Holley,a very small hydraulic cam,and a set of FPS headers.
When we swapped on my 830cfm annular Holley the car woke right up.

It just goes to show that minor variations in the combination can make a major difference in power I guess.

Scott


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They probably had guide issues with them,it was common for them to suck oil like crazy on the early versions of those,I would pass on them.As for Carbs the Summit Carb has the good parts of the 4100's with some updates and they use readily available Holley parts to tune.

 

After all my reading I am starting to get a pretty good idea of what direction I would like to go with my engine. The only thing I am really playing with is cam choice. I am planning to build the bottom end solidly for the moment and put it back together with stock heads for the moment and then after I sell one of my projects go with some afr 165s with 1.6 roller rockers as they seem to be one of the best options and are suited for the kind of driving I will be looking at. I will talk to my machine shop today and post a list of what I plan for the bottom end this evening.

 

Ok so my current plans are:
Machine work and balance rotating assembly
summit brand gasket set, bearings, oil pump (std volume), and pistons (thinking flat top 4 valve relief and hypereutectic)
ARP brand rod bolts, main studs, and oil pump drive shaft
For valve train I am looking at:
Summit roller lifters
Cam I am having a lot of trouble deciding on. After hours of reading I believe the E303 and Trick flow stage 1 are both more radical cams then I would prefer to run with lower vacuums and more finiky driving characteristics not to mention having to get a torque converter to match which I will likely do anyways. I am looking at Comp cams magnum 35-420-8 cam (270, 270 with .533 lift and 110 LS) which seems to have power in the area I want and though $100 more probably a better choice. The one thing that has my attention is with .533 lift whether it would be too much for the stock heads with correct springs.
Torque converter is something I may have to adjust whether I like it or not.
I am hearing so many mixed opinions on header quality but not any specific brands being recommend. Does any one care to throw out a specific header brand that is good quality and normally fits well?

 

Best fit for what you are doing is a HEDMAN 88400 header,If you read this link I posted: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1302_six_budget_ford_heads_that_work/viewall.html You mentioned your plans to use AFR 165's which use 2.02 intake valves you will need to clearance those new pistons so if you add the heads later they will clear unless you want grind on those pistons in the block You may want to re-consider the Flo-Teks or an Edelbrock RPM http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-60229/overview/make/ford which won't require piston mods,for the sake of Warranty you should go this route:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-cl35-302-8/overview/make/ford not really a good idea to mix a cam with another brand of lifters should there be an issue.The aftermarket heads will have good valve springs and probably stud mount rockers which your stock heads don't which means you will be having to shim your stock rockers to adjust them since they are not adjustable like a stud mount.Or you could just order this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-331-40...Parts_Accessories&hash=item258c57d1d2&vxp=mtr

 

Make sure you send the studs with the block to get machined . . .

Don't use a summit branded HG, fel-pros are great quality. 1011-1s have the steel ring for iron heads and don't leave half themselves on the deck when you pull the heads off.

A summit HG is going to be a copy of the 8548 which is fine but the compressed thickness will be more (.037 to .047) and it will be a graphite gasket meaning you have all that stuff stuck to the block when you change heads.

I didn't realize comp had a magnum line in hyd roller but those dimensions aren't worth $300 even if they were moderately different from the stock cam.

If the E/B cam is too big then run the stock 87-92 roller cam with 1.7 rockers. Save yourself $250 . . .

Personally just about every mild steel header is the same "quality" . . . fitment might be a little better but they will all burn off the coating.

 

Hmm thanks for the information. That crate engine would be a sweet set up but at the moment it is out of the budget by a little ways. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/afr-1402/overview/. It looks like these heads have a 1.90 intake valve not 2.02. Would that still require the same clearencing? I am keeping in mind other heads as well.
I will have to watch out for the head gaskets in that case. The cam may be a doable thing I will do a bit more reading on your suggestion of stock with higher rate rockers

 

Pretty much every modern piston you can buy off the shelf for a SBF is going to have valve reliefs that are large enough for 2.02 valves, let alone 1.90s.

I'm the kind of person that wants to know exactly down the .001 how much clearance I have in the motors I build but a stock-ish cam with 1.90s is probably going to have a mile worth of clearance. It doesn't take very long to clay a relief and spin the motor over though . . .

 

I'm running the FRPP X303 cam in a stock '90 5.0 short block with milled 289 heads,and with the .542" lift of that cam I have plenty of room.
No need to worry about valve to piston clearance with the E cam,and if you're going to go to the B cam,I would jut skip right over it and go to the X.
And seriously,take a little time with a die grinder and do some port work on the stock heads before bolting them back on.Its easy,it's free horsepower,and you far a sense of accomplishment that you can brag to your buddies about when your motor picks up 30-40 absolutely free horsepower.
Putting a cam into a sbf with stock heads is like putting 4.56 gears in the rear,then driving around with the parking brake on.The stock heads will not be able to let the cam do it's job.

Scott


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