Seatbelts, car seats, feeling guilty confession

But the person who chooses not to wear the seatbelt is usually the one who, in a wreck gets thrown around the inside of their own car and loses control, and then their car ends up injuring someone else. I was behind a friend of mine when he side-swiped a van in his 67 Ford truck. He wasn't wearing his lap belt and he flew all the way over and hit the passenger door, yet he held on to the steering wheel which he also pulled to the left, and then drove into a telephone pole. Had he had his belt on he wouldn't have been injured nor would he have bounced to the passenger seat and swerved the truck to the left. He never liked wearing his seat belt, but he even admitted it wouldn't have been so bad if he would have worn it. He does now, everytime.

 

I wouldn't drive without one...OR ride without a helmet if I rode.
BUT the guys do have a reasonable argument, no matter if we agree with it or not!
I was just expanding on their argument a little...

 

I'm sure you've all seen the chase video on TV where the idiot running from the cops hits a white Jeep Wrangler about dead center on the rear axle from the side while running the intersection.

The Jeep had the green from what I could see.

Amazing part was after the Jeep was struck, it turned up some serious horizontal rpms and spun into a power pole or similar.

If the Jeep owner hadn't been belted in he'd been launched.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Once upon a time my sister commented that it was better to be thrown clear than be trapped in the vehicle by a malfunctioning seat belt.

I asked her when was the last time she saw a malfunctioning seat belt.
No answer.

Then I asked her to stick her finger on my spinning bench grinder wheel.
She looked at me like I was crazy.
I told her to look out the window at the asphalt going by and that would pretty much be like sticking your whole body on the grinding wheel.

Can't cover everything, but a seat belt and roll bar in a roadster is a good start....

 

I put them in my T but I can't get the car seat tight with the lap belt, the buckel is dead in the middle. I've taken my 3 yr. old out in the car but I make sure he has ear plugs,sun glasses and his bike helmet on. Call me over protective if ya want, if you do, all I'll hear is bla...bla....bla

 

no belts is one of the many reasons i drive old cars... i hate that law, and old cars are a great way to get around that. i just hate personal safety laws in general.(helmet) ralph nader is a jerk

 

Been putting them in every car I own that didn't come with them since 1975. I even have a pair installed in the middle of the front seat of my 50 so my wife can seat next to me.

 

I put them in my 31 tudor and have never driven it without using them. Just makes good sense to me.

 

That'll show 'em!

Thanks,
Kurt

 

My conscience in building my old truck is me thinking "my kids will ride in this." If that doesn't make you create the safest vehicle you can you have problems.
CHAZ

 

When I put them in the Roach Rod... the local fire chief came by (he's a hot rodder) and said "They'll help us find the body"

I feel safer with them... 'won't even drive across the parking lot without one on.

Sam.

 

First off, the reason I don't have a restraining system in my T Bucket is because it's NOT DONE YET. As in, DOES NOT HAVE A BODY... YET. Maybe that's why you have not seen them YET. Jeez. Second I know what the thread was about and my response stands. In a fucking collision, they will keep you from flying out of your fucking car, which may save your life. It doesn't matter if it's a Model A or a new Benz.

 

I'll have shoulder/lap belts in my 28 Chevy when I finally get around to building it. With lap belts, you can end up with worse injuries in case of an accident, but even lap belts are one of those safety devices that can help keep you from getting into an accident by keeping you from sliding around in emergency manuevers. Its not perfect, but its better than nothing. I rallycross in a car with shoulder belts, and even they don't hold me in as well as I'd like, but I'd be all over that car if the seat belt wasn't clicked.

A bit of advice for those about to install belts:
-If you drill through the floorboard for mounting points, please reinforce it some to keep the bolt from tearing through in an accident.
-Bolt the seatbelts to the same thing you bolt the seat to, ie: if the seat is mounted on the floorboards, mount the seatbelt there, too, not to the frame.

 

I'm glad most of you out there wear your belts, I too feel naked without them.
I don't want that guy in the back seat flying at me either so everyone wears them when I'm driving!

 

Dead set, I wasn't going to get into this but I have never read so much SHIT from some of you. Who gives you the right to decide for the chidren ?All these soccer mums people whinge about,what makes you think that they wont hit you...are you something special?? Sure the dont work in every case but by Christ at least it gives you a chance. Whats so mucho about not complying with a commonsence law or maybe from your grave you can tell your loved one "no one can tell me what to do" YIPPEE
Those that dont wear belts are friggin idiots. Lets finish this dim witted thread before I spew.

 

I don't think that we're on the same page, tfeverfred. The original question was about seatbelts in hot rods. In your reply, you said you used them. I could only presume you were on topic, and were saying that you used them in your hot rod.

And, it does definitely matter whether it is a Model A or a new Benz. If you just stick in some lap belts into an A (or your T bucket), then you may be (probably are) doing much more harm than good to your body. The new Benz has hundreds of thousands of hours of safety engineering time put into its restraint system to ensure that it is not doing more harm that good. And, there's more ways to die in a car accident than flying out the window (which happens rarely in proportion to all the accidents that occur).

Again, I use seatbelts in my modern cars and my cars that came so equipped. As a trained engineer, I will not put them in cars that did not come with them...that is a professional decision based on a vast amount of research on the topic over a 28 year period of time. You can research it yourself and come to your own conclusion, like Hackerbill did. I don't think that there is a "right" or "wrong" answer. It is complicated. But, some of you seem to have based your decisions solely on the propaganda. That is what I have a problem with. THINK, educate yourself, and then make an INFORMED decision based on the evidence and facts.

 

I used to never wear belts, I never go without. My 20 year old son is Autistic with an IQ in the 40's, he never lets me drive without the belt being on and the doors locked. It is hard to admit but he is smarter than me on this issue.
Right before Thanksgiving we were out and I drove off the end of a "T" intersection into a ditch at about 25 MPH. We were not hurt due to the seatbelts, and as we were in my old Bronco we had little vehicle damage, if we had been in the car we would of totaled it.
Take Sam's advise wear the belts

 

My very first car,a 1941 Willys moredoor sedan, bought in 1966, had front seatbelts already installed by my grandfather, who I bought it off for $20. My second car, a 1955 English Ford Prefect, bought in 1967, didn't have belts installed, but I has a spare $6 in cash so I bought a single lap/sash belt and installed it in the drivers seat.

About 3 weeks later I had a head on collision with a full sixed Holden sedan, which probably weighed about three times what the old Prefect did. I was doing 40 and he turned across in front of me, and I hit him before I could even touch the brakes.

Yes I had bruises across my hips and chest from the belt, but the poor li'l Prefect was flattened almost back to the windscreen on the drivers side. If I hadn't been wearing that seatbelt I wouldn't be here to pester you about installing them in your car!

(And I've just installed a baby seat anchor point in my daily driver Triumph so my 2 year old granddaughter can finally ride in 'Pa-pa's big red car')

Cheers, Glen.

 

Then, perhaps you will share some of this research. When I do a search the CREDIBAL opinions are that people are safer with them. Of course a hot rod is not going to be as safe as a new car, but having some sort of restraining device is better than none. The logic of wearing seatbelts is over whelming. It's just common sence, not propaganda.

 

Most of my research has been in professional engineering journals, not on the internet. Some of it has been extensive conversations with safety engineers (I'm a generalist engineer by training, with emphasis on mechanical engineering). But, I'll see what I can find for you.

 

tfeverfred, here is a good starting point for you...concerning the effects of an improperly designed restraint system, how complicated it is to "get it right", and what it can do to you if you do not.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:hCcUv-6vklYJ:www.circletrack.com/techarticles/nascar_seatbelt_system_tech_inspection/index.html+%22lap+belts%22+%22internal+injury%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Here's one regarding the damage that seatbelts and airbags can do:

http://www.jtrauma.com/pt/re/jtraum...nlSFwc24mghXx1nJw!901085598!181195628!8091!-1

Here is one of many patents on items that attempt to solve some of the dangerous problems of the standard 3-point passenger car restraint system (with discussion regarding the dangers and need for some sort of improvement...scroll down the page past the ads):

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5141287.html

I consider these credible sources, and they are the very very tip of the iceberg...but should be enough to get you started on your journey to making an informed decision.

 

Wasn't the question whether or not to use them? Not what kind of design is better or worse. And yes, there have been cases where wearing a seat belt caused injury or death, but they do not out number the cases where seat belts saved or reduced injury.

 

I simply posted those as a starting place for your own research into whether or not to use them. What I originally said was that an improperly designed restraint system is more dangerous than none at all (and that even a "properly" designed system can kill a person). Those three links illustrate that point.

Show me the statistics that you reference.

By the way, the research journals will inevitibly start off saying that people are better off using restraint systems than not using them. It is almost a requirement to say this, regardless of what the rest of the journal article states in its findings to the contrary. If this is not stated, there is an almost certainty that the researcher will no longer receive Federal government funding for his/her research. (This is something I deal with on a daily basis in my position at a major academic research institution, so I know this to be the case.) You may be starting to see why I perceive this as propaganda.

 

Here's something I found. It's a few years old, but I think it makes my point. While not a save all device, your chances of death or injury are lessened.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2003/809765.pdf

Then of course, there is just plain logic. How could a person not restrained in a vehicle that rolls over have less injuries than a person restrained? I just don't see it. My thoughts are not propaganda, it just makes good sence. Also, the use of the word "propaganda" makes me think that some people believe there is a government "hidden monetary agenda" to promote seat belts?

We can agree on one thing. In the end, the choice is up to the driver as far as antique vehicles go. I'm going to use them. The numbers are too strong and I have also seen what people look like who have not worn them. I'll take my chances.

 

I'm still pretty young (21) but back in grade 7 me and a friend hit a tree in a field car. I put my head through the windshield after smashing my face off the dash board. It didn't kill but it did mess my neck up pretty good and tore all the muscle and most of the skin holding my chin on and cracked all my lower teeth. I was lucky tho. I'm pretty excellent at math and my hand eye is stellar. But getting my face all put back together cost a good deal of money and I still can't feel most of my chin, which causes me to sound handy caped when my chin gets really cold. Needless to day I wear one every time I get in a car and don't move till everyone else has one on to.

 

Now you're THINKING and researching! You may remember, that is what my stated goal was for my posts.

Keep digging though. Don't stop now. Make a FULLY informed decision. It is your life and the life of your passengers that depend on your decision.

You'll note that the most important numbers in that report are downplayed. It states that 56 percent of fatalities were wearing no restraints, but fails to mention the collary that 44 percent WERE wearing constraints. Statistically, that is pretty much even. Even if you ignore the statiscal margin of error (which is probably higher than 5 percent) you only have a 12 percent better chance of survival if you wear seatbelts. And that is in a car that has a "proper" system...not one that is jacklegged into a hot rod. 12 percent is 12 percent though, and any improvement on keeping your life is important. But, is it significant enough to cause the kind of "you MUST wear your seatbelts or you'll surely die" hysteria that would prevent a grandfather from giving his grandchild a ride around the neighborhood in a Model A???? I think not.


You ask about rollover injuries. Remember the guy that I talked about that was trapped in his burning car by his seatbelt? That was an extremely low speed rollover...his car was barely moving and he slid down a levy. He would have had no serious injuries from the rollover, but he almost burned to death. Others, more authoritative than myself, have called this issue (seatbelts that won't release under body pressure) an outright COVERUP by the big three, insurance companies, and NHTSA.

And, yes, there is a monetary agenda to promote seatbelt use that goes back to at least 1966. And it is NOT hidden. It is well documented. There has been no effort to hide or deny it. But that is off the topic of this thread.

Here's a few more related items that I offer as food for thought.

1. More cars that have ABS rearend other cars than those that do not. You may say, well more cars that are on the road now have ABS than those that do not. However, that statistic was first noted in the first year that ABS became a requirement, when more cars did not have ABS than those that did.

2. Frontal airbags were designed by Cadillac (at the insistence of the insurance companies) to protect people that did not wear their seatbelts. They were never intended to supplement seatbelts, but rather to replace them. There is no evidence that they do supplement. Yet, now the law requires airbags AND still requires us to wear seatbelts.

I had a third one, but I've lost it. Must be old age.

 

Actually, I'm done with it, but it's always good to feed the mind. As I said before, my choice is to use them. I guess I just can't get the images of those crash test dummies flying around inside that car.

 

A good example of propaganda! And it worked, too.

 

Here's a pipedream: Maybe if everyone felt LESS safe in their cars people would drive sensibly. Maybe the soccer mom on the cell phone would pay attention to her driving and not tailgate if she thought her precious child would careen around inside the minivan if she jammed on the brakes. I figure the risk driving my T Lakes Modified is about the same as riding a motorcycle. It's a risk I'm willing to take. Hot rods are inherently less safe than new cars. Sure, put lap belts in your rod, but drive like you don't have them. The WAY you drive might be more of a life saver than lap belts.

 

never leave home with out them

 

Right or wrong? I guess that's up to you (whoever you are) to decide. I'm just chimeing in because this whole mess reminds me of my Dad, and what I heard him say more than a few times.

Remember that he started driving in 1937. "I'm driving a one ton missle of death at 100mph, and you want me to strap myself to it as well! You must be outa your ever lovin' mind"

As for THIS dicussion I got the answer: You can't run at MOKAN without, so there is no choice.

And no a slow drive around the block in 1st, you shouldn't feel guilty.