Setting main caps on my Hemi.

Factory assemblies do not use washers because of the one-extra part to assemble, one-more item to buy, and if they start with all new material they stand a chance of getting past warranty, which in reality is their goal.
You can put everything together without washers. No one said they were critical. On the flip side, why does Mopar Performance inventory and catalogue hardened washers if they have no 'real' value ?

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Bolts in wood with washers are a different matter as the washer is probably double the size of the bolt head area. Also with wood while turning the head into the soft material, you would lose the bolt head and nut before really getting them tight. I do construction and understand all about spreading the load. But again, these washers were only used on the early Hemi's and then eliminated. So to annswer a question with another question, why did they eliminate the lock washers when they sell them in the Mopar Performance inventory and catalogue hardened washers ? Also as far as using a softer washer, that would defeat torqueing the bolts down. The lock washers on my engine were hardened and the bolts all had a machined finish on the face of the bolt. I guess if you want to add a hardened washer it wouldn't hurt but I dont think you would gain anything either as you could only get a washer with the same diameter of the head. No room for bigger. Also as far as torquing, if you lube the face of the machined head, it should be able to torque accurately up to 80 lbs.

 

Softer doesn't mean "soft", it's still a lot harder than the cast caps and softer than the bolt...as far as load distribution, sure they're the same size as the bolt head, but how much load is being carried on the flat parts of the bolt where no material exists? Arguing against using them is equal to arguing for using them, there's always people who are going to take sides...I personally prefer them, especially since there is no reason NOT to use them, and 2 good reasons to use them...to each his own...

 

So again why do most all Hemi's not use them, Pontiacs dont use them and I'm sure most other manufaturers don't use them.And as far as load, if they are soft material, and if you could use bigger washers, at 80 lbs of torque, any part past the bolt wouldn't be spreading any load as most are less than 1/16" thick. The load wouldn't carry to the edge of the washer with this thickness. On the other hand, the bolt head is 3/8" thick. I think thats why the manufacturers eliminated them. They rely on bolt stretch for torque and torque to keep them locked. Anyway we could debate the hell out of this but I guess you are right, theres no real answer.
I'm not going to use them.

 

I had 'em on my 331, i think, dont remember my 276 though i have a 276 engine assy manual, If i knew you were assembling I woulda dug it out, but i think it is pretty lost right now

 

Manufacturers are cheap, and they don't build 500-plus hp engines...the washers I use aren't 1/16th thick, more like 3/16ths and they're hardened,maybe only 10 Rockwell less in hardness than the bolts...the diameter of the head of a bolt is just as critical as its thickness, so any gain from diameter increases clamping force while also decreasing friction during torqueing...I'd be curious to see what the NHRA, NASCAR and Indy guys use to assemble their motors...personally, I'm not cheap enough to not cough up a couple bucks for something that has no drawbacks in my motor...

 

I guess what I'm getting at is, why argue against using them? Because a penny pinching manufacturer assembling a 210hp stock turd doesn't use them? Or do you like galled main bolt heads and inaccurate torque settings? It's like saying "No, I don't want any extra insurance that my motor stays in one piece"...

 

Hey Ruiner, for one, this is a 160hp 7.0:1 compression Hemi. After I'm done with it, maybe 180. Also I am running a 430+ HP Pontiac and shoot it with another 150 shot of nitrous on a 10.5:1 compression engine on pump gas. And guess what, after 100s of runs and 18 years of thrashing on the street, no failure and Pontiacs never came with washers nor did most other manufacturers. So why add something that isn't needed. Its not about the money, its about common sense about using them. I repeat, the washers would have to be the same diameter of the bolt so its not spreading loads. The Hemi came factory with LOCK WASHERS not flat washers!!! If there would be any gauling, this would cause it. And furthermore, undoing 8 main caps, 2 lock washers were cracked in half and then when I was retorqueing them back up, one more broke. No wonder they elliminated them. Thats all one needs is a washer to break and lose your torque rating( lose your bearing clearance instantly). Theres also a post up above, even the 392 didn't come with washers. I don't think galling would happen with 80 lbs torque with a lubricant with a machine finished head.
I'm not trying to get in a pissing contest and all is good. If all the posts said they used lock washers or flat washers in all the hemi's, and I had them in any engine I have torn apart , I wouldn't even give it a thought but why add something that is so uncommon and not used in most engines . If I was running big stroke, heavy pistons, high compression and very high HP, then I would use studs and forget the bolts. But then I'd also use a different engine with 4 bolt mains or even 4 bolt splayed caps.

 

Well then I guess you know best...us idiots on the other side of the fence will just keep wasting our money on non-stock parts that do nothing for us...

 

{us idiots on the other side of the fence will just keep wasting our money on non-stock parts that do nothing for us}

You said it not me.
But again, thanks for your concern but I will be on the side of the fence where the manufacturers and engineers that spent milions of dollars on research and development and eliminated the washers all together.

Also spend all the money you want on non stock parts that do nothing for you as I'm not your Mother nor your Father.
I will always spend money on non stock parts that prove to be better than stock if required. Maybe I should pull my 580 HP Pontiac and put washers under those 2 bolt main bolts?
Anyway Ruiner, its been an experience learning that only the early Hemi and earlier engines used washers. And all the info I have learned from you.
Thanks again for your concerns.
Off to the swap meet tomorrow to find some used flat washers to save a few cents. Not.
I need to go take a piss now.
Take care.