Projects Shade tree Model A speedster kind of thing

They are easy to get here, but good ones are more expensive than tube shocks. The Armstrong MG ones I had before worked really well, though. Might be an option over there? No more period-correct than tubular shocks, unfortunately.

 

This is a bit out of order, I was working on it alongside the shock absorber project. Kind of figured it was better to deal with each topic separately.

It's about time to get back thinking seriously about a body for this car, so I drug out the conduit I had bent up earlier and clamped it back on there. A little masking tape to fill in some of the gaps and I could start to see it better.







It's a start. I like the basic idea, kind of matches my minimalist tendencies. I'm a little worried about the transition from the radiator shell to the cowl, I think I'm going to end up with a body line at that curve that slopes down. Can't decide if it will look odd or not, need to ponder that one a bit. The upper part of the gas tank is going to stick out of the top covering back there. That's by design. I want to keep the rear of the car small and unobtrusive. Just an aesthetic thing. No doors planned for this. I'll just figure a way to crawl in and out. Maybe it'll help keep me limber in my old age?

I went ahead and ordered some sure enough 1/2" OD tubing to replace that conduit. 1/2" EMT is actually closer to 3/4" OD, and it just looks too bulky to me. I didn't go with chromoly or anything like that, just cheap basic stuff. I'm not expecting the framework of this body to be a structural part of the chassis, and I don't think 1/2" anything is going to offer me a lot of protection anyway, so I didn't see any sense getting too fancy. Plus, I'll probably screw up and waste some of it. Cheaper is better for that. Haha.

 

Do you have sufficient room to slant your radiator, like the mid 30's Fords were? That would allow you to lower your hood and improve the profile.

Al Hook

 

Nah. That would angle the top of the shell down and look funny to me. Also, it's hard to get the perspective from a picture without a driver in it, but this thing is small. If I lowered that hood line, I think it would feel like I'm sitting on it, not in it. This was obviously taken before I put the tape on, but you can see the stick that marks the top of the hood.



I do like how the suspension work I've been doing has lifted the front end and reduced that chassis rake a bit, though. I'm happy with the stance now.

 

My actual 1/2" OD tubing came in, so no more excuses to delay this body project, I guess. I'm just going to build it by eye, no plans as such. Kind of like sculpture? (Not to put on airs or anything.). My father used to build some truly beautiful boats like that, and he taught me. This is kind of the same, in a way. I'll just start at the bottom and work my way up.

I've been watching YouTube videos on bicycle frame and airplane fuselage construction for a while now to try to get an idea of how best to work with this tubing. The big-deal bike guys all have these fancy fixtures that let them use hole saws to cope the tubing, but I'm not going to spend that kind of money on something I may never use again, and that wouldn't have been available to a backyard builder in the '30s. I settled on this plan:



I clamped two hard Beech boards together and bored a 1/2" hole through them with a forester bit, centered on the seam. Then I bolted them together and sanded a roughly 35 degree angle on one end.







Then it was just a matter of inserting the tube, clamping it, carefully sanding away the parts that projected (without sanding away too much of the wood each time), and making a duplicate tube so that I had a matched pair.



Believe it or not, both ends of those tubes have been coped. I was just holding them at an angle that hid the bottom ones.

Then I stuck them in place and tack-brazed them in. I'll have a lot of fill-in brazing to do when I get this thing put together and off of the frame. So far, I have a pair of runners that sit on the frame, and a pair of full length longitudinals that run about 4" above the frame and pinch together in the back. You might notice that they are actually a little wider than the frame at the seats.











That last one looks a little asymmetrical, but it's really not that bad. It wasn't taken from perfectly above the centerline of the car. Having said that, I'm not freaking out about symmetry. I don't want anything out far enough to be obvious to the naked eye, but I'm not stressing over centering stuff down to hundredths or anything. I'm trying to emulate some dude in a barn during the depression, after all. Not to disparage the ability of builders back then, I just think perfect symmetry is kind of a modern fixation.

Those longitudinal pieces run straight back to the*****pit with no bends, which may not be ideal aesthetically, but it avoids compound curves in the hood and cowl panels. Just making it easier on myself down the line.

I'll bend up the waistline longitudinals next and braze them in. Exciting times around here. Haha.

 

Great, great ideas for the construction. Regards, Harald

 

Looking forward to this. I’m at least a year from starting my body. Like that you chose to braze the parts together. Lots of folks Pooh Pooh brazing, but a brazed joint can be incredibly strong if done correctly.
If you have time, watch the vid(s) of Jordan of Bennett’s Customs body build of his speedster. He was a bit stuck with what to do at the cowl in front of the steering wheel. I think he chose wisely to flare up the body a bit. In the sketches/layout I’ve done on my speedster, having even a 2 degree slope along the crown of the cowl/hood makes a huge difference in the appearance/rake of the body.

 

Thinking of your build reminded me of the Mercer I saw at Hershey last week. No coach/body work after the seats. Body itself seems a bit plain, but that’s just me.

 

Thanks Harald and Ziggster.
Zig- I am a huge fan of brazing. Partly because I'm more confident with it than welding, especially on thinner stuff, and partly because I think it's an historically authentic solution. I agree that it can make a surprisingly strong joint. I neglected to mention that I'm using a round file to square up the angled edges that the sanding left in my copes. I'm getting a good, tight fit-up to the longitudinal tubes, which I have always understood as being pretty important in brazing. If I was welding, those angles would be a nice bevel to fill, but I don't like trying to fill gaps when brazing. I might be wrong, pretty much self-taught on this metal working. I've been fooling around with wood almost all of my life, but just started trying to make stuff out of metal in the last decade or so. I am certainly not ready to emulate any of the work they do at Bennett's. I've watched that race car build series on YouTube with great interest, but I couldn't begin to duplicate it. Mine will be adapted to what I feel capable of, but I hope it will turn out OK. Seems to me most of the old fairground racers had bodwork more like that Mercer you posted, straight lines and few if any compound curves, and that's kind of the vibe I'm going for, even though those were mostly Model T's and that scene was pretty much over by the Depression, but let's no split hairs here.

 

Love what your up to @rwrj. Braze is the same color as ole Owly too...he gets another round at gear shifting duty comin' up!!!

 

Lots of fancy racing bicycles are brazed together, if it's good enough for them it should be fine for a speedster body and****orted hardware.
My high school shop teacher in the late 1960s told us that it only takes a pencil line to stop the brass from flowing to unwanted areas and make a somewhat neater looking job. I must have tried that sometime, but I don't recall the results.
I am impressed with your shade tree engineering and construction. Keep up the good work.

 

Thanks Stogy and Fabber. The owl is waiting patiently.
I've been notching and brazing in the little free time I've had. Starting to see some shape. This process kind of mandates a lot of sitting back and pondering, then adjusting, then more pondering. I'll get there.
I said earlier that perfect symmetry wasn't a priority, but there are certain things the eye is just drawn to, and I have to be extra careful there. Maybe the main one is a straight centerline. I used a tape measure stretched from the grill shell all the way along to make sure everything was lining up.





I was proud of that mitre joint. They aren't all that good. Hahaa. Here are some more random pictures I took, mostly to ponder over:









There is plenty left to do, but I can see it better in my head now. After lunch I'm going to go out and throw some masking tape on it again.

 

Wow, the rear will be a beauty.
Greetings Harald

 

Thank you, Harald. As promised, here it is taped up.










Ironically, the rear is the part that is bothering me most. There is too much rake to that sternpost, for lack of a better term. I need to pop it out, shorten the top longitudinals, add a little more bend to them, and braze it all back up with that post a little more vertical. That's what I get for bragging on that joint. Hubris will win every time. Haha.

To Ziggster's point a few posts back, the hood-line looks to be sloping down just a bit. I'm planning to put a dash on that top crossways tube, and it will define the actual body shape. I'll raise it just a tad over the tubing, so no worries there.

 

Looking good to me. You have more guts than me to commit that much effort to a body shape using metal. Haha!
I recall seeing cars with partially exposed gas tanks, but tried to find some and couldn’t. You’re going to have to trust your eye and gut. Adjustments along the way would be expected. This link has some info, but nothing really close to your style of body.

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/152859.html?1281026710

 

Ziggster,
Hell, it's just tubing and time. Haha. I already reworked that back end, not sure I'm happy with it yet.

I'm kind of inspired by a bunch of GN and Fraser Nash cars that run over in Britain. A good many of them have a crossways barrel style tank with the top third or so exposed. I stole this picture of Mark Walker's Thunderbug from somewhere a while ago. I'd give credit if I could remember where I got it. Sorry to the the original source. Anyway, it gives you an idea of what I'm thinking about.



It's worth a Google for anybody not familiar with it. Fascinating car. The videos of it running are pretty amazing.

 

Not being nasty but really would love to see video of you getting into & out with body outline. Considering something similar but concerned about getting in & out.

 

Well, it ain't pretty. I need a step on that frame. We are finally getting some rain here, so I can't really video it, but I'll describe the process. Basically, I just step over the tubing onto the seat, then wiggle under the steering wheel. It works easier to come and go from the passenger side because there isn't room to the left of the wheel to get my knee through. It's not terribly awkward, but the old car was easier because it didn't have any body sides to speak of past the cowl.

Anyway, because of this welcome rain (it's been about a month of drought) I didn't get much done today, but I'm still happy with the progress. I've been puzzling over what to do with those longitudinal tubes up by the grill shell. They were just kind of flopping around in space, and there was nothing to anchor the actual body sheathing to. I thought about just brazing in vertical tubes like I've done elsewhere, but I needed a way to tie the body into the shell, so I came up with another solution. First I bent some angle iron out of 16 gauge steel, took those out to the car to mark where the tubes fell, and carefully hole-sawed them so that the tubes would fit through and end up almost flush on the outside. Maybe the pictures will make it clear?







See how that lip fits over the rebated part of the grill shell? I can shim that out and through-bolt it all together and should be set. I'll braze the tubes in, of course. The driver's side only has two tubes because the bottom one is blocked by the steering box and its bracket. I'll notch the actual body covering around that and either leave it exposed or cover it with something.

I also got the rear of the body frame adjusted a little bit. I thought it had too much rake on the little end post, so I cut it out, shortened the top tubes by an inch or so, bent a little more curve in them, cut and coped a new post, and brazed it all back together. Here is the problem:



And the solution:



I guess it's a pretty subtle difference, but it matters to me. I sure am going to have some grinding to do on all these brazing blobs. Haha.

 

I need to frame around where the firewall will be. I started by making a plywood pattern of the eventual dashboard. Then I clamped a crosspiece where the firewall will be and, using a good straight 1x1, superglue, and some batten stock, I made a story board to get a rough outline.







I transferred those points to some more sacrificial plywood and made a pattern in two halves. Made it easier to insure both sides were the same as I trial-and-error fine tuned it with the same straight board. Then, off to the bending tree.





You can see "Pat" written on one side. That's the best fitting one. I matched both sides of the tubing to it. The other side is just there to let me check the top angle and overall width. Lots of fiddly bending and checking, but it's pretty damn symmetrical, if I do say so. After that was done, it was just a matter of coping it, clamping it square in place, and brazing it.




It's hard to get a perfect fit on this small stuff, but I hope that will be strong enough.






I like that profile better, just a bit higher at the cowl than the grill shell. I'll fill in the sides when I get some more tubing, and frame that thin firewall the rest of the way around with thicker wood that I can bolt to the tubing for a good seal.

 

Looking good! Not sure if you’re planing for more tubing around the*****pit opening, but a nice touch would be to use that tubing around the*****pit opening, and then to roll the body metal over it. A lot more work, but would give it more strength and a “finished” touch.

 

Stogy likes......I truly can't think of a better use for blue tape...

 

will/can you put a piece of 20 ga aluminum on the firewall --or both sides

 

Thanks for the “getting in” explain. How about getting out - gracefully? Dieting to see that video some day

 

Thank you for sharing your work. It's informative, inspiring, beautiful, and much more exciting than some high-budget projects!

 

Looking good! I really like your vision for how this is will play out, and your means to get where you're going. I too love those spindly British hillclimb cars especially the stripped down GN's. I gotta say though, if it were me working on your shop "floor", there'd be a bunch of errant hardware and sockets laying around because if I dropped something (which I seem to be doing more), the hope of ever finding it there would be miniscule! Keep on keepin' on!

 

Wow. Lots of traffic here today. Hope I don’t leave anybody out. Hahaa

@Ziggster: That*****pit opening is about done. I’m thinking maybe leather covered padding like an old WWI biplane? We’ll see.

@Stogy: Thanks. That tape does work pretty well for its intended purpose, too. Hahaa

@patsurf: I just painted the fiberglass on the old firewall, and it did fine. Think I’ll go with that again.

@AmishMike: Grace isn’t really in the cards here. “Dieting to see”. What an appropriate typo.

@Dubonet Garage: Dang, man. Thank you.

@mohr hp: I have a magnet. Hahaaa

 

The next job is to frame around the plywood firewall. I'm using Tulip Poplar and epoxy. It's just like making a double sawn frame for a boat. First, I made a frame that fit inside the tubing, just tacking the joints with super glue, then made a twin, but with the joints in slightly different spots. The crosspiece is temporary.



Ideally, on a boat frame, you would want those two sets of joints as far apart as possible, but this will be glued onto the fiberglassed plywood, and with all that backing it up, staggering them probably isn't even necessary. The next step is to just glue those two frames together.



You can see I didn't even worry about the inside edge yet. Easier to deal with that after they are laminated together. Just trimmed it on the bandsaw and smoothed it on the edge sander.



And here it is glued to the plywood and in place for a test fit.



The fit is actually tighter than it looks. It was leaning back a tad in that picture, which makes it appear to be open at the top. I think I'll run another frame on the front side that will be 1/2" proud (flush with the outside of the tubes) and will lay against the forward face of the tubing. Then I can bolt it all together. Still have to install the vertical tubes on each side, but I ran out and am waiting on more to get here.

 

I got that oversized frame made and glued to the forward face of the firewall. Once I get everything trimmed up and painted, I'll bolt through it and the tubing to hold it all together. Just clamped in I can tell it braces everything up quite a bit.







See how I had to file those half round notches for the longitudinals?



That whole firewall project took several days, mostly because of waiting on glue to dry. I only have a couple of hours each day I can give to this thing. I did manage to get the rest of the vertical tubes cut, coped, and tacked in while I was waiting on glue, though. This afternoon I pulled the body frame off of the real frame in preparation for full brazing. With if off, I can turn and prop it every which of way so the braze doesn't flow away from the joints as bad. It's a spidery looking thing, for sure.









I guess the weekend will be mostly brazing, so nothing very exciting to see. Oh well. I may decide to throw some diagonal bracing in there, though. Got to ponder on that a bit.

 

There were earlier racing cars that had similar frame designs.
I think they were called Birdcage.
I did a search:
The Maserati Tipo 61 "Birdcage" is a racing car from the late 1950s and early 1960s that got its name from its innovative tubular space frame, which looked like a birdcage. This design feature, consisting of over 200 thin steel tubes, offered high strength with a very low weight of only around 30 kg. The car was very successful, particularly with victories at the 1000 km of Nürburgring in 1960 and 1961.
You are in very good company.
Best regards, Harald

 

I noticed something about my body frame, and it was really griping my****. Here's the problem, highlighted:



Those two uprights should be the at the same angle. Upon investigation, I found out that the starboard longitudinal is 1" longer than the port side one. I don't know how I let that happen, thought I was paying attention. Thankfully, the bottom ones do match each other. Whew. Anyway, I can't live with that, so had to fix it. I un-brazed that starboard brace and cut an inch out of the longitudinal piece right where it was brazed.



Then I turned a little plug. One end is a drive fit, the other a little more loose.



I drove the tight end into one of the tubes, and used a spanish windlass to pull the tubes together, feeding the plug into the other tube, then brazed it all together (including the upright). The tight end kept it from just getting pushed in all the way, making sure I had plug sitting in both sides.







Ended up with this:



Sorry all of my***** in the way makes that a little hard to see, but those angles are almost identical now. Close enough for me.

I did decide to put a couple of diagonal braces in each side. This was tricky for real. I first made scrap wood patterns.





These gave me the lengths and angles to transfer to the tubing. I cut and coped it, and brazed it in. I'm not showing a close-up of those joints. Hahaa.



To @Deutscher, I'm aware of the Birdcage Maserati's, but they used all of that tubing as the structural frame of the car, so this is quite different, really. I think it has much more in common with the fuselage of a WWI biplane (Or monoplane. I see you, Fokker D.VIII). I'll go ahead and let the cat out of the bag. My plan is to skin most of this body with fabric, just like those planes were done. I'll use nylon, instead of muslin or linen or silk or whatever they used. Mostly because that stuff, in the quality I'd need, is ridiculously expensive, but also because the nylon is so much stronger, and can be heat shrunk to tension it up. The hood and top part of the cowl will be steel (or maybe aluminum, we'll see), but the sides will be fabric. I've been fascinated with skin-on-frame kayaks and canoes for a long time, and this seems like a similar idea. Should be an adventure. Knock on wood.