I JUST heard that you can't cut and buff SS metallic. Is that true? Has anyone done it successfully? I may have an "extra" gallon of single stage metallic paint if I can't cut & buff it. Thoughts? suggestions? Catchy old sayings? I'm painting the car in this thread: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=698812&page=5 Paint is proving to be quite a formidable opponent. Good thing I'm too stupid to quit.
The problem with it is, as you cut, you also cut into the metallics themselves...so you end up with all these random sparkles that don't look as cool as they sound. They also come loose from the paint, get stuck in your pad, and give you a muddy lookin mess. It's unfortunate, but true.
wish I had a better pic, this is cut and buffed.. looks pretty good. You can clearcoat the single stage if you wet sand it.. or while the enamel is still wet you can clear over it.. might get a little thick. ha ha
I definitely don't want something that looks just "ok". I've had cars with "ok" paint jobs for long enough. I want something that looks nice. So how did they do it before bc/cc system was around? I would imagine that the early metallics were some kind of lacquer... which you cut and buffed if you wanted a real shine. How is an old single stage lacquer different than modern SS paint?
More coats doesn't accomplish anything. As was mentioned, problem arrises when you said and hit the metallic. Therefore, you have very little room for sanding. Instead, do it this way when you paint. On your third coat mix some clear with hardener in with the SS paint ( is your SS urethane or AE ?? ) Then spray a fourth coat that is all clear. Then you can cut and buff normal as long as you are not removing a lot because the surface is real rough.
Back when I was painting ,I used acrylic lacquer.I would add extra thinner to the last coat and not put it on wet,so that the metalic would "pop". the next 3-5 coats would be dca468 clear with slow thinner,piled on wet. This allowed sanding before buffing.I also overcoated the lacquer color with Delstar clear after giveing it 12 hrs to flash the solvent off. That yielded a harder more brilliant clearcoat,but did not hold up well in prolonged sunlight. After a few years it would start to flake off.Not a big deal because most of my stuff got refinished every 2-3 yrs anyway. edit) the glass 28 in my avitar is ppg acrylic lacquer w/o any clear. Iwas going to flame it so the clear was never put on.A luckey break for me now because the paint is just as good as when I did it in 64. I will pick up where I left off on it!
Even lacquers would cross-coat on a cut and buff. Unless you're the terminator and can lay every coat with accuracy beyond even today's modern robots, don't expect perfection. I don't mean to insult anyone, but many have the eye for shine and surface, but not total color consistancy, as well as the fact that many cut and buffed metallics that can be bragged about are pretty dark colors where you can get away with it a bit. That is until you put on your Polarized sunglasses on a bright day. So now you spent all that $$$$ on paint and have the WTF face goin, right? Don't panic just yet, unless some extra surfacing is part of the panic. You can go ahead and lay down your color until you have coverage then let it cure out. After that you can surface it down with some 1200 until it's all nice and flat, but the real suck part is the cleaning of the paint water. And speaking of which, make sure you sand from the top down because that water mess may have solvents in it that will scar your new sanded finish permanently if it's left there for too long. Once all sanded down you can reduce the final coats just a bit more and lay down some really slick coats that won't take a whole lot of sanding to get the finish you want. If it comes out clean and slick enough for you after just the spray (it's possible), leave it alone and enjoy it.
Hey, Back when acrylic enamel metalics were the standard of the refinish trade, the whole idea was that they did not require cutting and buffing. If you learned how to trigger a gun properly, reduce your material with the correct temp solvent, and maybe jus a little retarder for max flow, you could get a pretty good lookin finish. Each colour was a learning experience, as no two metalics contained the same amount of ground aluminum, to colour, to clear to suspend the aluminum. The oem colours from the early to mid 70s were a muther! Early metalics came in both lacquer and enamel, first nitrocellous & synthetic enamel & later in acrylic resins. The lacquer types could be coloursanded and buffed, but the early synthetic enamels & early acrylics were to soft to cut and buff untill they fully dried, usually up to a year! The introduction of catylist paint technology in the early 70s, and the use of clear coats by the late 70s changed the game some, but skill was still required to produce a '' professional '' paint job. Yes, it's possible to produce a '' professional '' paint job with the use of a single stage, but probably not something you're gonna hit without many hours of pratice, and a coresponding number of reshoots " Life ain't no Disney movie "
Pimpin . . if you do it the way I suggest, it wll work., I have done this lots of time with older SS painted. As for what was the way it was done . well with a SS metallic job, basically when its dry, you get what you get. Some slight buffing can be done, thats it.
Pimpin is right. If you practice on some scraps of metal you can get it to work. Then a light polish should be all you need.
Agree with the others. SS metallics are for "shoot it, and out the door" paint jobs. Not for a mirror finish cut and buff. Lacquers were OK to do like this for several reasons, though sometimes you did have blotching problems. They were made with very transparent resins, and smaller metallics, with less metallic in the paint compared to modern paints. They also dried immediately, so the metallics "froze" in place as you sprayed, getting pretty consistent dispersion in every coat, so if you cut through one, 2 or 3 coats, it didn't matter, the color and metallic stayed the same throughout. But even back then, a "custom" paint job in lacquer was usually clearcoated. Had to with larger flaked finishes, as well as pearls, and candy.
Everyone here has it right. You can LIGHTLY buff a SS metallic with success. Sanding and or heavy buffing will result in not so pleasant results. One of the additional problems of cutting through the finish and into the aluminum is that the aluminum will oxidize quickly, creating even more problems. The bottom line in my opinion, if you want to cut and buff (meaning sand and buff glass smooth...), just use several coats of clear and do it right.
As I said in your other thread, I am currectly painting a car with a similar paint that you are using. The paint that you have will work fine just spray it as a base coat/clear coat. Put enough clear on it to allow for sanding and polishing. That will also allow you to fix scratches later. The other thing that I learned with the color that I have is that it covers poorly. Mine is a light green with alot of metallic in it. Gives a great look but needs several coats to get a nice coverage. Also likes to model. Don't know how to spell it and can not find my dictonary to figure it out. Anywhy, when you see it you will know what I am taking about. Will show more in the sun. I am a painting hack and would have no problem going though the gallon of paint that you have and need more. I have painted my hood twice and not sure if I am happy with it yet. One more try will either get it right of really screw it up. Good luck. Neal
Yeah, I noticed that a tiny bit with my paint. It is slightly mottled in a few areas, but there is very light flake in this paint so it isn't bad. It's a stock 1965 Cadillac color called Cascade Green Metallic. Anyway, I'm going to follow the recommendations of guys that know. My first step will be to get a 1/2 pint of the same color without metallic to see what how it looks. Sanding and buffing a solid color is apparently no fun, but also no problem. If I don't like it w/out metallics, I'll go the clear route. Thanks for all the input. I swear I be totally upside down if I only followed the advice of paint store guys. I wish those dudes knew as much as the people on this forum.
A quick around these problems is to mix about 50% paint and 50% clear in the last coat or two, used to do this with lacqures, this way you have a better gloss and don't cut into the metallics as much. Still works with modren paints.
The metallic brown is single stage metallic RM acrylic lacquer that was shot back in the 80s. Has been cut and rubbed several times since and still is holding up pretty well.
Clear it. Save up, bury the surface. Cut-buff-polish-glaze-deep wet shine. Anything less is a gamble and maybe.
All true statements being stated. to cut and buff single stage metallics for someone who has not painted or buffed freshly painted vehicles before can turn into nightmare! If you have not painted car yet go to your paint supplier and get some clear to topcoat 2 coats this will give you buffing material. Take your time on this step also a inexperianced buffer car screw this step and you start over!
There are ways to keep the buffing more manageable also . . that would be with the material you use to buff. I have found a material I use exclusively not. It is Sure Finish, available online from Autobodystore.com. You buff at a slow speed. You do not need any swirl remover or such. Even on black . perfect material. It breaks down as you use it and leaves no marks. I have been using it for about 5 or 6 years now, and would never go back to other materials. Not the cheapest stuff, but well worth it. There are other advantages as well, give it a shot. But keeping the buffer at the lowest setting is what this material was designed for and that would help a novice also.
Hey, Your method was standard procedure prior to the BB/CC days for guys that wanted to add alittle zing!!!!!!!!!!!!!to a paint job, and to create akinda ''lacquer look''. The down side was that the addition of the clear didn't make for a very lomg-lived paint job, as none of the early clears had any UV protection All of the clear in the world won't make a mottled single stage metalic, with dry and flooded spots look one bit better Is that '65 Caddie colour a "Firemist'' colour? The Firemist was a special order colour on Caddilacs in the 60s & 70s and contained really finely ground aluminum flakes. Generaly, you shot this finish at right angles to your previous pass to acheave a uniform metalic look, and sometimes at a diagonial, much as you would repair a ''mottled'' spot on a standard metalic finish. " Do not reach greedily for the Kool-Aid "
Pimpin, I was reading all this when you mentioned the firemist colors caddy's had. I shot a 55 chevy caddy firemist green. Beautiful color but like you said, pretty coarse metallic for the day. I believe the secret is a good gun with the correct pattern. We would over reduce the last coats and slow it down a tad with retarder depending on the humidity. But it's not a beginners game. Single stage metallics, at least for me I say they are kinda like candy's. When you get a streak or heavy spot you have to back away and drop coat it one coat to even things out then go back allowing a little dry time before you put the last EVEN finish coat on. never had a problem with sanding and buffing but it needs to be CURED. Nowadays single stage urethane is the way to go for a lacquer look but metallics require more care shooting as you know. JMO from an old fart. I still love to paint. But I miss my old binks and 50 lb. Man you could lay the paint on. EPA would shit their pants when they came by the shop at night and couldn't see you through the windows cause of the overspray. Hee hee. Piss upon them. Lippy
I think what's confusing people on this topic is that not all single stage metallic's are equal. Some of them will let the solids settle and almost make their own clear coat. These can be wet sanded with 2000 grit or so and be buffed out. Others leave the metallic's right at the top and you will screw up the finish if you wet sand them. If you are not sure what you have don't risk it.
The one thing I didn't see asked was are you using the hardener for acrylic enamel? If you didn't do not waste your time trying to sand, and polish because it won't stay polished (I found that out the hard way many years ago).
Yeah buddy, once you sanded an uncatylized enamel, solid or metalic, the oxygen would attack it inna New York minute! The gloss would die back big time and the only cure was a reshoot or keeping alot of wax ( usually paste) on it, once the paint was fully cured. " Life ain't no Disney movie "
I have to shit on one of the recommendations given a couple times, that being to add clear to your color. This is not a "one approach works for all" idea and will do things you may or may not be aware of, or care about. The metallic colors get their personality through metal dust floating in a colored "binder", for lack of a better term. When you add clear or additional solvents it can rinse that color away and leave excess silver specs in the final finish. In the worst case it will look like someone was spraying silver near your work area and got overspray on your new finish. Adding additional solvent will do this effect really bad and be instantly noticeable. There's a few fixes if you'd like to cocktail some clear into your SS poly. You'll need to be very precise and take notes. Take a pint of your SS color and reduce it 50%, and mix well. Let it stand for a day or 2 and most of the poly will settle to the bottom. You now have an identical "tint" for your 1st coat of clear and can avoid the excess silver specs. Using a pint only will give you enough to experiment and take notes for the final top coat. The other thing to be certain of is the type of clear you mix. For example, if you were using PPG Concept you'd need to use something like 2021 clear as they're the same base stock. Your jobber can tell you which clears are compatible. Just sayin...
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