Hey guys... I'm rebuilding a 350 punched .030 over... Its getting a mild performance overhaul, but I'm at a loss as to what oil pump, water pump... and fuel pump to install! Its just not something I've done much research on... as to what uses the most power and what does the best job... I've heard about the Z28 pumps and how they are better then stock... but I've also heard that you can bolt a big block pump up and get higher preasure with less power needed to turn it! Then for water pumps... I'm not sure if I need to go AC Delco or if aftermarket stuff works just as well... Then the question is aluminum worth the money for the weight savings? Fuel pumps... same set of questions... is it worth going with AC delco... or do the aftermarket guys make em better? Thanks for the help! (The other... is can I rebuild what I've got? Do they offer rebuild kits for the oil pumps and water pumps? Dont know what the inside of a fuel pump looks like, so I'm cautious on that one!) Thanks again!
As for the oil pump, get a melling high volume. You'll need to replace the oil pump drive but you should still be in for less than 50.00. The only drawback is that you have to keep your oil level up or it will suck your sump dry. If you're not built to the point of haveing a real fuel starvation problem than a stock fuel pump will do. Actually on a mild street engine I like the carter street strip pump. But its probably a matter of personal preference. I normally run an electrick on my hot rods. Water pump, if your pretty mild and it doesn't get pretty hot where you are than a stock pump will do. That is if the rest of your cooling system is up to snuff. I've never run an aluminum pump on my stuff, they look cool, but you're only talking .001s(or less)in the quarter if your going after weight savings (and I'm cheap). I'm using a flow cooler high volume on my FE, and a Summit pump on my small block chevy(that's a flow cooler in a summit box). My Fe never gets much past 200-210 on the very hottest day (idleing in the drive) and the small block is about the same. I have upgraded my thermostate. I haven't rebuilt an oil pump, fuel pump or water pump in eons. Well except my eletric fuel pump that is. Just not worth it.
Use a stock volume oil pump for just the reasons that porknbeaner point out....if you dry out the pan there is no oil to pump, no oil to pump means no oil to bearings, no oil to bearings means dissassembly...sometimes self inflicted disassembly by the motor. A good rule of thumb is to always run a high capacity pan with a high volume pump....ALWAYS. The SBC oiling systems are pretty well sorted out, especially for mild applications. Stock GM oil pumps are just fine most mild applications. Melling replacements are a good picks too. If you feel you want to see higher oil pressures then GM and Melling (and others) offer higher pressure pressure relief springs (the Corvette and Z28 pumps had stiffer springs). Your not concerned with parasitic losses caused by high pressure/high volume pumps at the street level. Your conserned with durability and service life of the engine. Stock replacement water pumps are fine. If you can afford genuine GM parts then go for it otherwise any stock replacement type pump is fine in your mild performance rebuild. Remember, GM built 275 to 330HP small blocks designed to go the long distance....all of which had "typcal" iron water pumps. Spend the money on a high flow aluminum pump if you must but at the mild performance level/street driven application your talking about its not worth the extra bucks for the trick parts. Fuel pump....AC, Carter, or Holley. Take your pick. Stay away from the cheap off-shore trash. A stock pump will support 400hp all day long. Any more than that and you'll need to step up to a 3/8" fuel line and a performance type pump. Make sure you keep the fuel pressure regulated between 5 and 7 psi at all times if you go to a high performance pump. Rebuilding fuel, water and oil pumps is a lost art....mostly due to the economy of being able to buy replacements (new or remanufactured) so cheap. Kits for the Holley and some styles of Carter pumps are available as are bearing and seal kits for most water pumps....but is it really worth the it?. Rebuilding oil pumps is almost never worth it (for the SBC) because the pump housing wears too much. -Bigchief
Have you looked at paws overhaul kits? They ussually give yah a decent kit which comes with a stock oil pump but if yah pay a lil more you can get a high vol pump. You'll be fine with a stock oil pump if you're runnin a mild perf motor. As for the fuel pump stock set yah back 15 bucs pump plenty of fuel for yah. Water pump stock to say 20 bucs can't go wrong. Don't spend the extra cash on a alum water pump.
I havent looked at paws stuff... really should! So the vettes got the high tension springs as well? Still thinking to go with the Z28! One more question, is it the bearing setup in the waterpump that wears out... can I replace it? I'm trying to come out on the cheap end of the straw this time around...
I just built a 355 last fall and used one of the Z-28 pumps, Jeg's part number 689 M55A, it was a Melling unit and was only $28.00. Good pump, cold the engine surges up to 70 pounds of pressure and when it's hot, it stays around 50. High volume and high pressure pumps aren't a good idea unless you want to run a deep sump pan and a windage tray and besides, it really isn't necessary. I also take a die grinder and smooth up the cast surface on the rear main cap where you mount the pump. Fuel pumps? I used a Holley mecahnical and since my car already had an electric pump on it, I left it there and run both. It's a Holley "Red" street pump and they are junk! One issue you need to be sensitive to is fuel pressure, the high performance mechanical pumps will generate about 11 - 12 pounds of pressure. Works OK for a Holley carb, but if your going to use AFBs or Edelbrock Performers, they like about 6 1/2 pounds max because of the needle and seat design. I would highly recommend a guage and pressure regulator, their cheap. Water pumps; I have tried them all, this motor uses a Weiand aluminum pump. I've tried stock pumps and installed the brassworks plate behind the impeller, etc., they all worked the same for me. I've done the cooling system thing, every possible configuration.....40 Fords are a challenge. My success came with a good Walker radiator, good water pump, 16" Walker hurricane mechanical fan and a shroud. On one of the prior posts, someone offered that they always used an electric fuel pump.......that's cool, I specifically kept mine on the car, because when it sits for a while, with a mechanical pump it can be tempermental, especially if your like me and don't use a choke. Shoe
I am in agreement with the Melling high volume oil pump.One thing i do is locate the pick up screen in relationship to the bottom of the pan in installed location, then spot weld(one tack will do) the pick up tube to the pump so it will not move from the desired lacation Water pump, the original rtype will do, either the short bocy or long body, depending on your pulleys and accessory package. Fuel pump, I would go with one with the psi rating closest to eht needs of your carb. For instance, an AFB style only requires 3 to 4 pounds pressure, so a Hplley or any other 14 pound pump wqill provide more fuel than the carb can use. Most factory mechanical pumps flow around 7 to 8 psi. Which is plenty for medium power engines. Just my opinion. Jim
one more thing,, do alittle quick grinding on the bearing support where you mount the pump,sometimes its stuff from the casting left there who reduces flow.
I'm going to go against the grain here. I have built chevy drag and street engines for 30 years. If the clearences are right a STOCK pump is all thats required. There is no Way that a oil pump can push enough oil thru the pushrods and contain it enough to run the pump dry or fill the valve covers with oil. Look at the size of the oil drainback holes in the head.The high oil pressure looks good but it stress's the filter,pump drive shaft ,distributor gear and tries to bury the front of the cam (back of the gear) into the block. Old wives tales are hard to get rid of.Just my opinion.
DO NOT PUT A HIGH VOLUME OIL PUMP IN YOUR ENGINE!!!!!! I've done it and at high RPM driving down the high way I would lose oil pressure. It was pumping all the oil up into the valve covers and the oil couldn't run back into the pan fast enough. I'd have to get off the throttle wait till oil pressure came back and the got after it again. I put a stock pump back in and I run 45-60 PSI all day long " except at idle "
Agree with JOECOOL, really don't need much more than a stock pump. Back in the old days we used to take the spring out and stretch it a bit, now, some of the pumps come with an extra stiffer spring. I have never ran an engine oil pan out of oil either and most of the time I plug the galley so the oil can only recover from the front and back! Shoe
Why do ya plug the drain back holes in the valley? Thanks for the comments guys... Next on the list is to find an oil pan thats got some baffles of some sort that I wouldnt have to chop of my arm to buy
The fastest way for the oil to be returned to the pan, is by flowing it out of the front or the rear of the valley. Any speed shop will have the plugs and the tap to plug the holes, it's a racing thing, just like deep sump pans, high performance oil pumps, windage trays, etc. Certainly not something that one would need to do to a street motor, but the point was that I have never seen any kind of an oil pump suck the pan dry! If your going down the highway and the oil pressure is going up and down any significant amount, I would think that engine has more problems then an oil pump. Shoe
I'd think so... Although guys have been talking about running 10w30 syn... and losing oil preasure while on the highway... and at high rpm! Change over to 20w30 and the problem goes away!
John, The comment I made about the sump sucked dry had to do with a high volume pump, stock pan and letting the oil level get low (voice of experience). I normally run 6 or 7 quart pans, but I still keep an eye on the oil level. If someone was running a high volume pump and discovered it was cavitateing at highway speeds (pressure going up and down) it probably had to do with low oil level and not the pump. They are made to feed a revving motor. I run a melling high volume (run melling pumps for years) in my 355 and wing it to 7 on a regular basis and have never had a problem with cavitation. Perhaps its overkill. Guess I'm old but I still don't use synthetic oil. Anyway, I guess I should have made that clear when I first mentioned it. Sorry BTW just for info, last summer I saw the corvette baffeled pans going for about 25.00 or so at the local swap meets. Thats a cheap performance pan. Of course this year they'll either be non existant or worth a million dollars.
I go for the stock volume pump. No need for a hi pressure pump unless you're running a racing engine with big bearing clearances. Another thing to do is deburr the inside of your block and head castings. just take a carbide burr in a power drill and run over all them sharp edges, seams, casting marks etc. Bevel the edges of all the drain holes and oil return runs, remove any casting bits that'll rip into your fingers when you are rebuilding, and also make sure there are no edges/lumps that could fall/snap off into your oil system at some stage.
PorknBeaner, I agree with ya, no dispute here. I use John Force (Castrol) W30 all the time, have had good luck with it. I like a little bigger then stock pan myself, braze on the pick-up as somebody else said, but in my 40 Ford Coupe, I can't run a big pan because the car is low. Years ago I had a 67 Chevy II, used a Moroso 8 quart pan, the one that the drag link runs through. After banging it on the ground a few times, I had to cut an inch off the bottom and be a little more careful! Shoe
John, One of the things we always run into is where do we put the oilpan. Gasser or mud truck (most of those never leave the freeway anway) no problem, but scrapers is an entirely different story. On the F-Truck I'm running the headers outside of the chassis so I can get away from the deep pan and go wide. But you just don't have that option with most fender cars, and your '40 is probably pretty cramped in that dept. I've just always run high volume pumps, I've even been known to lower the pressure on mills that turn a lot of Rrrs. I guess on our rides with tight confines we could go to a dry sump, that would be overkill to the extreme. I remember once when I was a kid I streched the spring on a small block because someone said it would raise the pressure. It did, I was running Castrol 40wt. It raised the pressure so high that it took the mains out. Sometimes the learning curve can be expensive. I still run Castrol, been running it since it stunk. Good stuff.
The only reason I plug the valley drainback holes is when I run roller rockers or roller lifters. The needle bearings (and pieces of pushrods)are hard on cams and lifters if they get loose. We also put screens over the front and back holes to contain any debris.Do not plug the front holes as they oil the timing chain. Also let me stick my neck out on another one. When building your engine if you need to grind the crankshaft or exchange it, try to make sure the side clearence stays at minimum. You will lose more oil pressure due to maximum side clearance on the rods than you ever will with excessive bearing clearances.If some cheap rebuilder or crank grinder wants to touch up those surfaces and add clearance you may have low oil pressure even if the rest is perfect.Just my opinion.
JoeCool & Pork&Beaner, Both of you are right on target, I share the same opinion. I have one of the Z-28 pumps in this car and it oils fine. I didn't plug the valley return holes on this engine but I have in the past and also used screen on the front and back. I did grind off all the slag and paint the inside of this engine and am running Harlan Sharp roller rockers, 1.5 ratio. New RPM Performer heads, Comp Cam .487 / .488. I shit canned the RPM performer cam, made absolutely no vacuum. The Comp Cams product has just as much lift but their lobe technology for some reason works and makes vacuum also. I'm using the Edelbrock manifold with two #1404, 500 CFM Elelbrock Performer carbs. Mechanical Mallory Unilite, set up at 14 initial and 34 total.....I don't screw around with the timing, I use soft springs so the engine will go to total as soon as it starts. 64CC heads and flat top forged pistons, 9.6 compression. There is where I really screwed up, with aluminum heads you can safely run more compression and still use pump gas. Cast crank, 010 four bolt main block, .002 side clearance on the rods. I just now, after many years of searching found a 4:11, 8" Ford posi rear. It currently has a 3:50 posi and the damn thing flys. You two sound like guys I could have fun with, if you ever hit Goodguys Columbus, I'll hook you up with some cool ones and we'll bench race. Have a good weekend. Shoe
Theres an interesting idea... What do yall use to paint the insides of the blocks? High temp engine paint? I wonder if ya sanded the insides down till ya lose the cast finish if ya couldnt get the oil to bead off of the walls down to the pan... More stuff to think about! I'm thinking to go with the Z28 pump cause its stock preasure till ya need the extra juice...
I use Rustoleum, doesn't matter what color. I paint the lifter valley and the block behind the timing chain. It seals the pores of the cast iron and not only allows the oil to flow faster but stay cleaner longer. John
The best paint for the inside of your block is "Glyptol" It'available at Electrical suppliers. Used for insulating motor and transformer windings.
You right Ragtop, Usually a motor shop will have some, they coat the field windings and armatures after they have been rewound with the stuff. John
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