Need more dump. Once the car tries to hook, it needs to have weight under the rear axle centerline in order to counter the rotational force at the ring gear. Drop the mill a couple of inches and add an inch or two of tire height, and your 200 foot out wheelies will go away.
All right Lippy! Post some pics of the jig when you get it together. Whitepunk, enlighten me on what more dive does to the car right off of the line.
Take a good look at the typical 200 mph 1964 - 1968 Top Fuel machine; the AA/FD. My brother had one, so I was there. This is how it looked through Brian Beattie's lense at Englishtown. If you follow the evolution of the Top Fuel machine then you come to the conclusion that it reached it's simplest and most refined form at that time and that is a beautiful thing to me. First they ran their Modified Roadsters and Competition Coupes from the dry lakes with lower rear end gear ratios, and then found ways to lighten those up until guys like Scotty Fenn and Dode Martin came up with tubular chassis designs that could be bought. Then Emery Cook and Cliff Bedwell figured out how to tip the can for 100% nitro and that upset Pappy Hart and the track owners so Wally had to acquiesce on that one for a few years. That was understandable I guess, until Dietz and Mickey Thompson figured out how to make paratroopers out of top fuel pilots. They pulled blowers out of the yellow sumarine school busses and put better berrings and seals in them. Then wheel bases grew a little longer. Then mid season 1964 somebody in the mid-west figured out that if he just aims the exhaust headers into the flat tire surface that he does two things. 1). he blows tire smoke out of his field of vision and 2). he throws heat onto the tire surface and that helps with traction ( which is the name of the game... ) Then you push start it after you roll it off a simple trailer that you tow with your station wagon to the track...! Then... once you learned how to feather the clutch...Wham...200 MPH...! Easy...!!! You gotta' love THAT... It's worth repeating, I said...YOU GOTTA LOVE THAT...!!! From that time onward, the Tpo Fuel machine just seemed to get more complicated. Wheelbases got wierdly long and guys put transmissions in them and got their feet blown off. ( not fun anymore ) Hummm... That's what happened to Big Daddy, who did something about it. ... and the rest is just more history. Today's Top Fuel machine is an emormously complex and expensive machine. Out of reach for sure. I wish there was some way that we could reinstate the FED of those years into a viable class of it's own and go racing with them again.
The groove is pretty narrow on most tracks. Would staging out by the guardrail get you far enough from the track prep to allow you to smoke the tires as far as you like? It's routine with some motorcycles, and I've seen exhibition cars do it. Here's a photo of it being done at Carlsbad, I assume for the same reason -
Kerry, the way a contemporary Dragster/Funnycar chassis works, is that a major portion of the cars weight is below the axle centerline. As the car accelerates forward, this weight is driven UNDER the axle, and thus levers down on the front end. This dynamic is variable as to the cars rate of acceleration and overall weight. The harder it moves, the less dump is needed. Slingshots of the tire smoker era had a TON of dump because A) they had absolute minimum weight up front, B) had the drivers "bobweight" to counter, and C) Didn't accelerate off the line like rockets with the tires spinning. When you see a car of this configuration wheelstand, it's not because it has too much power...rather, it's either spinning the tires too hard, or it's down on power and not working forward hard enough.
Tracks are narrower now, Our home track use to look like Carlsbad, now it has concrete uh, things like for road construction lining it, and it is narrow, more of the Hey we don't want you out of the groove mentality. It isn't rocket science, just overpower the track. Tony mentioned engine dump, that's part of it I think, plus wheel speed and having enough HP to keep the wheel speed up, where you need it most, down track. you have to run a tall gear, and have enough HP to overcome the traction. Back in the old days, the combo was pretty good, unprepped tracks, Lots a HP, and tires that were good for their time. Remember, back then they weren't trying to smoke the tires. They just did, that was the best combo they had. They made due with what they had. Then progressed from there as tires got better ect...when you see a car smoke the tires, it just....you guessed it, overpowered the track. I don't have all the answers....yet for my combo. Beep is right, a lot of it is tires. I don't have the money to do like Tim is doing, I wish I did and wish him all the best. That's the deal, enormous HP and just hang on. The best I can do is a 427 BBC on a big dose of juice with a tall gear and hope I can make enough beef to do the deal without looking like a nerd. (which I am anyway) I just hope the track is wide enough. If it isn't, I'll come up with another plan in the hospital.
Another thing on the engine dump deal. Using a rear end with a low pinion will let you get the crank centerline lower. Oil pan clearance in the front becomes scarce also depending on how far out the engine is from the axle centerline. I'm looking at a doorslammer pan kicked out on the rear sides for more oil capacity and still have enough clearance. Remember the old dragsters usually ran a stock pan with mods inside. For instance, a 68 SPE T/f car only had about a half a degree dump on the engine, by then tires had come around and it was about 188 in wheelbase. So tire smoking was not the norm. Although they still did at times. Lippy
The last of the big dump cars were Gilmore's Flexi Fliers...He built that configuration till '67 or so...they were absolutely gorgeous cars, but once the tires and clutches had evolved, they were working too hard to bury their nose in the ground at the tree to be effective anymore. Todays Funnycars are set up in this configuration...with a ton of dump, but that is done to offset the weight of the body trying to transfer off the back of the car.
Im sorrry but that photo was taken WAY before there was a groove. They just picked the best spot on the track to let it rip. The problem with todays tracks is the groove is just that, a groove. Like 4x4ing. You go thru the slop groove or climb on top of it. But opposite. In mud trucks you stay on the solid ground and not in the rutt. BUT, Drag cars the rutt is where you want to be. In a dragster with all the wheel speed doing a dirrect drive , rev the shit out of it and let it rip theory. This is a dangerous thing. The groove is really that. A groove. You dont stage one right and WHAM ! You got yourself a Mo-Kan Donut. Stage it right and your driving it , in the groove. But stage it out of the groove and your going for a ride. I have been there more than just the donut. I would for anything want to just roll up to the line. Really quick and light a bulb, rev the motor on the brake and bump the staged bulb. Then let it rip. But on todays tracks it takes more attention by qualified people. I will not make a pass in my car without a couple of crew members that I trust. That is why I didnt try to make a pass in Bowling Green . Because my regular crew wasnt there. I think of Denny Manali and the Half Moon Bay crash.
Well, that's my point. The stickum is limited to the groove, most track operators are cheap and don't spray from wall to wall. Stage out of the stickum and stay out until you are past the 330' mark at least. I watched Garlits do it at Indy in his car with carbs - SRIII maybe? The 2 cars in that photo don't look like they are in the area of the most rubber. If they all staged where the most rubber was, there would be a groove formed, in that photo it's all spread out, like everyone looked for a clean spot. Disclaimer - Smokers are a little before my time, I'm asking questions here, not telling 'how to do it '.
Now that yer getting "close"....do ya plan on going back to plan A? At least the metalflake and jiggly girls......
Not to get too far off base, but back in the day Gassers and even Jr Stockers smoked them off the line. Some because they overpowered 7" tires (rules) and some because the made big HP and the tires were harder and stiffer. All that was good for drive lines. If the tire slips, it lets the gears live. I'm all for you guys finding the combo. As far as tire sales, I think IF you can find the combo, more classes will come to smoke and run the "new" nostalgia tire. Radir is on the right track, but I bet M&H will join in and we can have a good selection for all classes - T/F, A/F, Gas and Stock. Condor is right, the tire needs to come full circle, even if it uses new tech to get there. We need the smoke AND speed to make the show folks really want to see
I've only just found this thread (yeah I know, I'm sloooow) so I won't say anything, just in case it's already been said. Here is what it's all about though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUc0IZQW4MU Ross.
Brian, I guess you could say it pulls hard at the other end. Just goes to show you. The right tire will do the deal, oh, and an educated right foot.
This is probably the coolest shit I've read in a very long time I'm thinkin that being "just a guy with a dragster" is the better choice.
Thanks Independant! Nitromethane is it's own world. It's way too big, way too expensive and the learning curve is fucking huge. You do not take it for granted. You do not do it half assed. Everything I've worked for over the last 10 years can be literally wiped out in seconds. I believe nitro is one of the few things left in the world (other than wartime combat) that human beings have no business fucking with. Now, if I can just find more money....
I love this thread, You bastards!!! i gota get some cars done so i can get to building a rail!! Luckally i can probably test and tune on some of the local backroads.....
right...er, wiped out in MILLIseconds! I'm still thinking stiff sidewall 16x12x32 radial slick with the right compound (who knows what that would be) on a 12 inch rim. Lots of motor dump, weight up front, pedal clutch and lots of tuneable (variable) power. I think with the right set up you could load the motor on the leave somewhat if the tires were able to hook while spinning. They hooked and spun back in the '60s. I believe that's the key to getting it all to work now. Still, I think a short wheelbase alcohol car with those 16" Radir slicks (not re-caps, I'd worry about them flinging off at big wheel speed) is the way to sort the whole deal out without going broke. Make it beautiful, hide the new parts or give 'em some style wherever you can, like rounding off the hard edges of CNC billet stuff, full bodies to hide the cage etc. BADASS paint. Wicked tow vehicle....Like I keep saying, one guy doesn't have to own all of it. I think clubs could get organized and build this gig. Like the Road Kings did back then in L.A. (Ivo and Prudhomme's car club.) I've said it before and I'll say it again...Fox has the set up to work the deal out. Be it a rail, a fuel coupe or a nasty altered like the 554 or Chrisman's Comet...Direct drive, big power, bitchin' style and wooley ass passes! COOL.
What's a "short" WB car? Under 140"? Under 130"?? Were Jr. Fuelers @ the same WB as the TF cars at any given timeframe??? And yeah, Fox has got it GOING ON.....
Fox's car is 140 I think. That's short for these days, but the early Fenn chassis' used to be barely a hundred inches! Throw it in the back of your pick-up and go racin...
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CWoody%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" name="country-region"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" name="State"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" name="City"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]--> In 1966 Roland Leong brought his Hawaiian dragster to the drag strip in <st1lace><st1:city>Pocatello</st1:city> <st1:state>Idaho</st1:state></st1lace>. I dont know what it cost to book him. They drove from <st1:state><st1lace>California</st1lace></st1:state> in a ford station wagon pulling a trailer with the Hawaiian on it. I remember they all looked like teenagers. Mike Snively was the driver. I remember the car was so low; they made the track officials sweep the whole track down before they ran. It was my first top fuel nitro experience. The smoke billowed off the tires the full ¼ mile and filled the spectator stands. When the smoke and nitro fumes cleared they had visibly laid rubber the full ¼ mile. I have since been to many NHRA races where the cars are more powerful and faster, but for some reason they seem less impressive or exciting. Sadly the Hawaiian sets in a car museum in <st1lace><st1:city>Torino</st1:city>, <st1:country-region>Italy</st1:country-region></st1lace>.<o></o>
This is what we need. Goodyear, still in business. Wonder if they still have the mold. Dreamin? Just think blue streaks on our cars!!!! Brand new ones we wouldnt be scared to spin at who knows how many RPMs. KING
The Jalopy Journal
