I remember the 1015/1129/1222/1299cc SOHC GS flat-four being an easy and popular swap into the 2CV in the '90s. The combination was precedented in the 1973-1976 Ami 10, which was based on 2CV architecture but came with the 1015cc four. Unfortunately BMW seemed to go a bit retrograde for the R18, losing the cam-in-head Oilhead format in favour of Airhead-style pushrods. Still, eight valves and 1802cc are not to be sneezed at.
My parents had an Ami Super, with the 1015 motor. Rust killed it pretty quick though. We had half a plan to make a "Lomax" kit car car out of it, but it never happened. The 2CV in that 80s James Bond film had a four cylinder in it. I'm sure someone said the new, big BMW motors don't fit the 2CV gearbox any more, for some reason. Sump too low maybe? Even the 720cc conversions on the stock motor are meant to be pretty good. I can only imagine what 1800cc would be like.
Je ne connais pas précisément le système de suspension de la Seidlitz. Sur cette photo, on voit que les bras de suspension avant sont toujours en place, mais avec un amortisseur hydraulique, alors que les 2CV des années 1950 étaient équipées d'amortisseurs à friction. Je n'ai aucune photo de l'arrière.
@Ned, you're absolutely right (easy, you're an expert!). @noboD, rather than a long explanation, here's an drawing that perfectly illustrates how the 2CV's suspension works (here in a version with friction dampers - not visible - located at the ends of the front and rear arms and the 4 "bumpers").
Il existe des kits pour installer des moteurs BMW 850cc, mais ce n'est pas facile ! Je préférerais installer un moteur de Panhard 850 (bien plus puissant que celui de la 2CV). Citroën, qui a racheté Panhard, l'a testé, et il existe au moins une voiture qui en est équipée. Je connais quelqu'un qui prétend posséder une entretoise fabriquée par Citroën. J'ai longtemps essayé de l'acheter ou de l'emprunter pour la copier, mais il refuse…
To clarify, the key element of the system is that the tube containing the springs (pot in 2CVese) isn't attached to the frame but is free to move fore and aft a short distance. Due to the rather severe motion ratio of the suspension arms, that small distance translates to a fairly substantial wheel travel. The fore-aft movement of the pots is resisted by steel volute springs in the early versions, as shown in the drawing, or rubber springs in later versions. The motion ratios make the system tricky to damp, and early 2CVs had inertia dampers: the vertical canisters at the ends of the suspension arms. They were basically a weight carried on a spring inside a hydraulic damper, and were of limited use. Later 2CVs had telescopic dampers mounted horizontally between the short arms of the suspension arms and the frame, where they partly defeated the object of the interconnection, as do the dampers on the Seidlitz. An effective way to damp the system properly would be to turn the entire pot into a hydraulic damper, making use of the large piston area to counteract the short stroke resulting from the motion ratio. I tried something on that principle here: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/interconnected-suspension.1325027/page-3#post-15781051
Nedou're absolutely right (easy, you're an expert!). **, rather than a long explanation, here's an image that perfectly illustrates how the 2CV's suspension works (here in a version with friction dampers - not shown in the drawing - located at the ends of the front and rear arms).
Ned, James, you dreamed of it, some actually did it! There was a bit of a trend around this design in late70s/early80s, but we have to admit the result is... unique!
It is unlikely that the GS engine can be stretched much beyond about 1450cc, without invasive surgery like relocating head studs and custom-making pistons. If not for that, VW Type 4 94mm barrels might have produced 1821cc. Still, if we're rummaging in that parts bin we'll soon encounter the Comotor, and then it's only a matter of time before someone says "13B".
And then there is this: https://www.citroenet.org.uk/p***enger-cars/michelin/2cv/history/1958-sahara.html
Back to the 50s! Do you know the de Pontac 2CV? It's very original with its symmetrical front and rear, its engine boosted to 500cc or 850cc (Panhard), its very particular suspension, its tilting headlights, and even its bodywork with floral fabric embedded in the resin.
Some information about the unique, interdependent suspension of the De Pontac: The front wheels are connected to opposite rear wheels (right front wheel to left rear wheel and left front wheel to right rear wheel). Flexibility is achieved by pads that press against the tire of a Vespa 400 wheel positioned vertically at the rear of the frame. To adjust the suspension stiffness, simply inflate the tire more or less!
The symmetrical ends remind me of Pininfarina's Peugette of 1976. Interesting! I'll need a moment to think that through.
My only 2CV experience was quite scary: My father in law had always wanted a 2CV. One day he said he found one behind an old shed , so we went there with my brother in law and his 200 hp van. We looked at it, it was a rust bucket, hardly running with minimal brakes and not on the road for years. Still he bought it and came up with the great idea to pull it 20 miles home with a tow rope and the van. After all he then got doubts about his great idea, so asked me if I could drive. So off we went and it was scary in that rattling tin can with nearly no brakes. The highlight of the trip was when after we had to stop at a crossing my brother in law forgot about me and the tiny Citroen and went off full throttle. The 2CV made a jump forward (it felt like all 4 wheels were off the ground) and it sounded like it would be torn apart like in an old french movie. Something like this: But we made it home and my father in law repaired and drove the 2 CV until his death some years later.
You reminded me of my commute to work, 30 years ago. I used to drive along a winding A road, in the south of England, with very few chances to overtake. If you got stuck behind a truck, you were usually out of luck. Unless you were the driver of the plums and custard coloured 2CV that I'd occasionally see. I have no idea who this guy was, but he was by a wide margin the best driver I've ever seen. I think he must've been a professional race driver. He'd overtake anyone, more or less at will in that car. Drop it into the smallest gaps in queues of traffic. Always kept the speed up. Absolutely on top of his game. My pal did the same route in a Ford ****** RS turbo (not a sluggish car, by any means) and he said he said there was no way he was going to keep up. Like they say - it's more fun driving a slow car fast.
I'm no great driver, but this reminds me of something I experienced. When I worked for the motorsport division of a major car manufacturer, I had a very efficient company car that I used every day on the main road leading to Paris from the west. This road (N118) is dangerous and ends with an impressive descent with quite a few bends down to the Seine River. For seven years I used this road every day, making the most of my company car's capabilities. But at some point, I had to use my good old 2CV to get to work and I drove it the same way... One evening, a guy in a newer car wouldn't let me overtake him on the downhill stretch. He was speeding up more and more but I was still right behind him... He never made it to the Seine, and every time I drive by, I look at the traces of his accident, still visible 15 years later, and I chuckle... (Don't worry, he suffered no physical injuries other than a bruised ego.)
Back to the late 1950s or early 1960s (information differs on the year of creation). Here's what is probably the most surprising (ugly?) but cool thing I've ever seen based on a 2CV. This special 2CV coupe is called the Citroën Mosselschuit (mussel barge?) and was made (in 1959 or 1963?) by a Dutch teenager, Erwin van Snick.
I discovered the car at a 2CV event in 2016 and spent a long time circling it, trying to understand it. Can you identify some of the parts used to make the bodywork?
9 ch***is may have been built and at least 3cars ***embled, including one with a Simca 4-cylinder engine (the one registered 898 JW 44 in the photos below), but Mismaque apparently gave up quickly, probably due to the lack of agreement with Citroën or Simca. A shame...
There are at least 3 survivors of 2CV Mismaque: the one with the 4-cylinder Simca (now blue with a white stripe), a yellow one restored with newer components and an orange one whose very extensive restoration seems to have been of high quality and which is in the USA (NYC?) since 2022. The two people next to the orange one are Guy Mismaque and his son, who helped a lot with the car's restoration.
Very cool, but I always wonder when people pose kids in a car. It happens a lot on T-Buckets, too. Being that I'm taller than average, it's something I spot. That side profile drawing kind of alludes to it being a 5/8 scale car for adults too.
If I'm understanding this correctly, and the vertical shafts (3) are held in position on the ch***is frame, this arrangement will be rigid in roll and pitch, whatever you want in bump, and somewhat softer in warp than in bump. Roll-rigidity is a bit of an extreme quality, but it might well be workable if combined with warp-softness, with the fore-aft distribution of lateral load transfer determined by the geometry of the balance bars (4) rather than spring rates. That is, the suspension remains tunable despite roll-rigidity. The Vespa tyre feels like an innovation of expedience, something the designer had available. It could be replaced with a single horizontal coil spring and damper, which would afford zero warp stiffness, or two springs and dampers close together if a tiny bit of warp stiffness is deemed desirable. The only problem with this arrangement is that it is pitch-rigid, which means that all that famous 2CV ride quality is forfeit. Pitch would, indeed, be more alarming than with a conventional suspension system. On a 2CV, the front wheels going over a bump raises the rear of the car, with much of the motion taken up by the elasticity of the springs. Due to the softness in pitch, very little pitching motion happens during this. On a conventional vehicle, the front wheels going over a bump don't affect the rear of the car, and the amount of pitching motion is determined by the front spring rate. On the De Pontac, the front wheels going over a bump lowers the rear of the car, and there is no elasticity to take up any of that motion, so pitching motion will be severe. This might be acceptable on a pure compe***ion machine, if tiring for the driver.
The drawing comes from a book on the 2CV that I've owned for over 40 years and have read and reread countless times. This information about the Mismaque's suspension is repeated in other books and now on the web. So, it's never been in my mind to question it. I remember seeing a photo of the car work in progress with one front wheel on a wooden crate to demonstrate the effectiveness of this suspension: the other three wheels are on the ground, and the ch***is is perfectly level. I tried to find it again to help you with your research, without success, but then I came across other photos that I examined more closely, and to my astonishment: both a period photo and others of the meticulously restored orange one show a completely different suspension with cl***ic coilover shock absorbers! And worse than that, the photo with the drawing and the ch***is model published above also already shows this… Did Guy Mismaque quickly realize that his system wasn't effective and switch to a more conventional solution?
So Dubonet, is your car a mashup of a 2CV ch***is and engine with a Morgan rear, Or a Morgan mashup with 2CV bodywork? love this thread!
Morgan weren't the only manufacturers of three-wheelers on that familiar pattern. @Dubonet Garage 's car seems to use 2CV components to a very large extent, and being fwd is more comparable to a BSA three-wheeler.
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