Something for the old Forders to ponder

I've noticed distinct differences in casting hardness when porting and modifying Ford and Mercury flatheads blocks. I'm not talking about differences within a single casting; I asked about that several months ago and Terry (38Chev454) provided the answer, saying, in effect, that the faster an area of a casting cools, the harder it will be.

This time I'm wondering about differences between castings -- one block to the next. Difference between 59AB blocks aren't too great, maybe accounted for by the foundry in which they were cast. The permium 99A Mercury and 99T Ford truck blocks (1939-1942) "feel" harder than Ford passenger car blocks of the same period as well as the 59ABs. That's most likely a spec upgrade calling for more nickle because of increased quality (Mercury) and a tougher service life for truck blocks.

The biggest differences I've noted are in 8BA blocks, with the early ones (1949, 1950) being very hard and the later ones (1951-1953) often being quite "soft." I characterize working on these later blocks like grinding coal -- the cutters remove material rapidly and it's very dirty -- like lots of carbon.

Recently, on one of the boards I hang out on, someone commented on declining quality of 8BA blocks in the last couple of years of flathead production, attributing it to Ford going cheap on us.

Although Ford like other automobile manufacturers was not above cutting a corner or two in the interest of profit, I offer another reason -- the Korean conflict.

The control over "strategic" materials, such as nickel, that had just begun to be relaxed following WWII, was ramped up again as we got right back into the war business.

Anyway, something to ponder for us old greaybearders who don't have tats to contemplate or the relative importance of the un-music forms that emerged post-Disco to tussle with.

 

I'm glad to hear that, since I have a 49 8BA block! Thanks for the interesting read!

 

Rockwell steel-ball type hardness testers should be pretty cheap in Socal, what with the collapse of the aircraft industry. I see them around in surplus places for $65 or so.
Yes since Ernest Tubb died there hasn't been much good music.

 

It's not just you, Older guys around here have told me the 99 and truck blocks were harder too. My block came from a 47 flatbed truck but it's just your normal 59 block as far as I can tell. The guy I got it from said it came in the truck and was never rebuilt, but the heads were mis matched. Had the standard 59 AB head on one side but the other was something else. Turned out the web was cracked so I didn't use it but it did have the stock pistons in it. I think Ford tended to use whatever was handy when they came up short to keep production going. I know on the Model As and the early 32 Fords they used parts till they ran out before going to the new year pieces. You notice that alot with the tail lights, headlights, mirrors and dash clusters.
I would assume much the same in the late 40's & 50's. That could lead to some of the confusion about truck engines if they put passenger blocks in some of them. There must have been some difference else why the designation change.

 

I have noticed similar and my favorites are 48-50 date codes, especially known 8RT originals.

One dilema that I have not found an answer, and goes against your Korean/nickel hypothesis, is that 52-3 passenger car blocks did away with hardened seats.
The reason I have seen in print a few times is the blocks were produced harder and that gasoline had improved; both combined to do away with the insert expense. Truth or Myth?

Henry was a cheap bastard so we may never know unless a metalurgy lab actually tests the various years.

Ive also built a fair number of later blocks but these were removed from larger size trucks and had hardened seats. Factory or added later? Lots of factory data appears to be lost to even academic researchers.

One downside to the pre 51 blocks is finding all the parts to be able to switch over to rotating valves if they had not been converted during an earlier rebuild.

 

Several thoughts:
Henry was a frugal bastard, but not a cheap one--no waste, but no corner cutting--very product oriented. I've seen several analyses of the corporate world in the '20's-'40's saying essentially the same thing: Ford--product centered, GM--bottom line centered.
Ford's were filled with very expensive detail parts and Ford casting/forging quality was miles ahead of GM--even though Ford made the cheapest cars.
The second Henry died, the managers hired surplus GM bean counters to modernize--some of the quality touches like Houdaille shocks and steeriing locks went away instantly in '48, and after that Ford was a mainstream company, doing things the Detroit way and not the El Exigente way.
Second, a research thought for Michiganders, you can go to the Ford Archives and obtain production blueprints and dated change orders for most part numbers--alook at flathead block paperwork would disclose specified alloys as well as mechanical changes. If I ever make it to the archives, I'll probably never come out... Maybe I could even get the real scoop on "Z" blocks, Canadian castings, military blocks...

 

And on the rate of cooling thing: It's widely known that cracking was a severe problem in 1932 when the flathead was introduced--the whole thing was a mass of difficult casting problems, as it was without doubt one of the most complex large iron castings on the planet with its passages inside passages. SIA once quoted a GM foundry engineer working on Cadillac's first one piece V8 in 1936 as saying the casting problems were not solvable--even though several million one-piece Ford V8's were already scuttling around!
The frantic work on the foundry problems in early '32 apparently reached the point of the head foundry man, essentially a corporate VP, working in the sand room directly attacking the problems. I've never found any detail on what they did to make the castings work--Ford was reliably producing blocks by mid year--but a betcha at least some of the work had to include messing with the cooling rates of different parts of the block.
Probably hardness gradients were a product OR a byproduct of controlled cooling rates.

 

Excellent point about the valve seats, Carl. Truth to tell, at least in my experience, I've not worked on a block of any year that didn't already have inserted valve seats. Hmmmm, could it be that they needed new seats early on in their service life? Really, I don't know, but think that there might be some correlation here. Also, had Ford determined that their harder blocks ('49-'50) could withstand normal operation without the benefit of hardened inserted seats and sought to pitch that as a feature, the outbreak of hostilities and a quick clamp on nickel could have caught them flatfooted with no easy way to back out of their reasoning for the new feature.

Just another thought . . .

 

Yes, Bruce, you're absolutely right in saying that Henry was frugal, not cheap. He'd been gone from this mortal coil for a few years, however, by the time the 8BAs and the surplus GMers were on hand in Dearborn.

The quality and style of Ford's forged and cast-steel and iron hardware are stunning even today. GM, ChryCo, and the many idependents who served the orphan manufacturers produced sturdy but clumsy pieces, bereft of the grace and sophistication that characterized Ford hardware.

I have some notions about the Z, L, and other blocks, mostly of Canadian manufacture, but perhaps I'll just wait to learn the truth.

 

Hmmmm
I consider myself frugal but my wife sometimes calls me a cheap bastard.

But you both are correct about Henry and I also meant it in that context. If you want to see some eye openers go to the MTFCA and read the various memos he wrote.

 

Bruce, I've been to the Ford archives and its not easy to get to the info you want.I went looking at 8BA blocks you better know all of your part numbers or its a lost cause It took me two trips from California in the dead of Winter to get only some of what I wanted.Like I said if you don't have the numbers your looking for,year,drwg" and detail numbers you won't get any help--TV

 

I could see the war years (all of the different ones) could have an impact on the raw materials available for cars vs. trucks and military use. Good material could have been used in the truck/miliitary as both would be used to support america's fight and the cars would get the less desireable materials.

As for casting, The molds would have been the critical issue, was there enough off spurts to allow even cooling and good flow to minimize purosity in tight or in distances far from the initial pour locations... That is one area were trial and error would provide important (or great Thermodynamic Engineers).. I would think that the later the block the better the quality and strength when there was no robbing of resources for the war efforts...

 

what do all of those different letters mean?...i see alot of the same kind of block with different letters cast on them...i have a 50 8ba with a big x cast in the top center of the bellhousing...it's also relieved,but it looks so nice that i wonder if it was factory...sorry to steal the post

 

I've never heard of an 8BA with factory relief, but who knows? If it is factory, you can tell: The factory relieved blocks were cut in one pass on a milling machine, so shape, size, and surface finish are different from a hotrodder relief.
A related note: Although I've seen lots of speculative explanations, the only Ford paper I've seen on relieving was a service bulletin relating to the big 1949-up Lincoln and heavy truck flathead. The bulletin said that relieving was henceforth being done at the factory on these things, and gave the dimensions of the relief for dealers to copy on existing engines. The reason given was to stop a cracking problem. People I have met with actual long term experience in (regular size) flatheads have assured me that (a.)relieving is an excellent preventitive for cracking and that (b.) relieving is certain to cause cracking, so therapeutic relieving carries the same mixed blessing from the experts as performance relieving.

 

This thread got off track soon enough, in spite of Carl addressing my original premise and setting me to thinking anew. Thanks for that, Carl.

This one looks to have about runs its skein with regard to the original premise. Admittedly it's a bit too tightly focused, sort of obscure. Oh well . . .

 

Oh, sure Mike.....so what do I sell you? A '51 passenger car block and a '53 8-CM block. Prolly both made of old Falstaff cans.
BTW, I'd love to see the nickle content of a French block. I'll bet it's right up there.

 

I'm thinkin' that 8CM block from the CD truck is gonna be just fine because it's a Canadian casting. At risk of having my information immediately corrected, my experience with Canadian castings is that they are overall harder and of better quality than US castings. Just an observation, all anecdotal info to be sure, but this is my observation and I'm the guy with the anecdotes.

I'm really excited about the tricks I have scheduled for the block this winter. There's a lot of magic to be found in the exhaust tracts, an area that traditionally has been ignored on anything short of a full-race motor. I emulate Ed Binggeli's work on the intake side because it's consistently successful, that and he's my teacher!

I'm looking to do some work with the combustion chambers on stock 8CM heads, and shave 'em a touch as well. Caburetion will be an un-dramatic but very efficient Holley 4-bbl on a port-matched Offy manifold. Ignition will be a GM HEI conversion that a pal has been doing for about a dozen years. They work just wonderful, up to and beyond 5K which is somewhere just north of the upper limit of streetable flatmotors. They aren't very pretty, and you sure wouldn't want one sitting out in an open engine compartment at a HAMB get-together, but it's gonna be covered by a hood, as will the -- gasp! -- alternator and that non-trad 4-bbl.

There's more bad news about what I'll be doing to the F-1, but I think I'll just park the rest of the info for now rather than freak out all the purists with my transgressions.

 

Coooool... I'm sure I'll be able to see it at the salt next summer. If you take me for a rip in the ol' pickup, I MAY let ya wear your old helmet again but don't getcher hopes up.

 

Do this casting info apply to Merc blocks as well?

 

Mike, you should know by now that many HAMBers cant maintain a thread specific discussion for more than a few milliseconds.

As close as I am to Canada, (about a 2.5 hour drive) I can count all the Canadian blocks Ive seen on one hand with a few fingers left over.

Here is another one for you, Bruce or other budding detectives. On 8BA blocks what ID have you seen on the oil pump idler cover?
Along with 8BA and 1BA, I have noticed my majority are 8CM and 1CM. Remembering that I do most of by scrounging on farms and other places that have a lot of old larger series trucks; I'm wondering if there is any truth to the Merc block being different in some respect? Harder and therefore used in the bigger trucks??
I'm talking here about engines that otherwise are pure Ford, no other Merc items such as heads, intake, crank.

Also, how many foundries did Ford use in the US? How much autonomy was there in the casting process?

I think we should send Bruce to Dearborn for the summer.

 

sorry to get off the path..when you have this many people with this much knowledge having a discussion,and you have questions...it's hard to not ask

 

"I emulate Ed Binggeli's work on the intake side because it's consistently successful, that and he's my teacher"

I've wanted to know more about his work since I saw it inadequately described in a circa 1962 HRM feature on his Willys gasser! I understand he's a fountain of knowledge, experience, and ideas on bangers and flatheads, and a real thinker and innovater. Please please please!!!! Give us some idea of what he does to flatheads!

 

Back to the war effects on Ford and other companies of the time. You suppose those reefs they built in the south pacific out of jeeps, trucks, tanks and the lot were left behind rather than brought back to the states to help keep the market going for the automakers after the war production ended? Ford needed something to replace all those liberty ships they'd been building. Thousands of cheap surplus jeeps and tanks on the civilian market wouldn't have helped the automakers get re-started. Another thought about varying metalurgy is that wartime always spurs tech growth by leaps and bounds. WWII took us from biplanes to jets in 5 years. I think it was the engineers hired on during the war that were still there in the late 40's and early 50's that prodded Ford into all those changes and mods of the flatheads after 48. And you may be right about the nickel being held back during Korea. Afterall, the country had rationed just about everything a few years before and that was still fresh in everyones minds. During Korea those engineers were probably working on the Y block towards the end and not paying attention to the flathead anymore.

 

Pondering... the coolest flathead dragster ever built was the Tucker bros. reverse-rotation car. Yes the exhausts tracts are a drag...they used 6 97s on the "exhaust" ports and ran 12" long straight exhaust stacks out the top of the block.
Turbos weren't well developed for small motors in those days, but now...two two-stage turbos would make a backwards flathead into a great Bonneville motor.

 

Oh. My. God. No!

Not............RADIALS?!!!!

Thanks for the info Mike. Your effie should purrrrrr.

I have no anectdotes, seeing as how I have only ported the 1 flatty, but my 8rt did chew through the stones and sanding rolls. Once I got the hang of it I pretty much did my material removal with burrs exclusively. The stones just ground away. Sure did polish up nice though.

Also my block had "Hardened" valve seats in it. The block itself sure seemed a lot harder in that area than the seats.

 

Barney Navarro has always been into running the exhaust out the top too hasn't he?

 

Before you port it Grim, you first have to decide what's intake and what's exhaust!

Mike probably has more porting experience than the rest of us combined. Kinda like discussing funny cars with John Force. As to the hardness of the blocks, I've always wondered about what is real and what is Urban Legend. It would be interesting if we had someone that could test Rockwell on different dated or model blocks. This debate has been going on over 50 years now.

Any Lurkers out there who have access to a lab that could check crystalline structure, hardness and steel composition? I'm sure we could find some samples from dead Z blocks, 59s 8BAs, canadian blocks etc. for you to play with and find the TRUTH about. All done in 1 lab by the same guy on the same equipment.

Hope I didn't just kill this post.