Spring behind axle w/ wisbones-how do you do it?

I saw this pic in another post and really like the front end set up.It looks like the perch bolts go through the wishbones.This set up would be great on my T.
I have a stock 40 axel and split bones that I want to use.Anyone have close up pics of this set up?

 

You can start here:Eyeball's site

 

I went to Eyeball's site and the pics there are real helpful.His comment got my attention.
[ QUOTE ]
"So I am going to mount the spring onto the split wishbone. (Against the advise of people that know alot more than me.)

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen this done before .Will I regret doing it this way.Anyone living with this set-up?

 

I just walked in from the garage where I was mocking up this exact setup for my A !
I want to keep the perches close to the axle,about two-three inches behind it ,as im keeping the frame horns and want the axle to be still close to under the highest point under the arch in the rails.
The problem Im encountering is clearance for the steering tierods,as the spring ends up directly above it.Should be able to overcome that though.
Im trying to get it as low as possible without suiciding it,as it sits now the rail bottoms are about 9" off the deck,which is fine,Im using a stock 46 axle, so I can always put a dropped one in later.With a 4" channel the highest point of my roadster pick up body will be about 33" which is pretty low.(excluding screen of course)
Im also using 46 bones which have a bend in the front to clear the steering,kinda handy.
Id also like some opinions on this setup....

 

Sorry I can't help with answering questions,
I just want to pipe in here and say that I too am interested in doing this.

I have a stock '41 Ford front axle and it will be mounted suicide style on the front of my roadster project.

I have the option of going with the spring over method, or maybe the spring behind set up pictured above.

I also have seen this before and am wondering what the pro's and cons are involved?

Any ol' pro's out there wanna answer a few people's questions????

JT.

 

I guess the pro's are that the spring perch is about 3" lower relative to the axle, and if youre using a crossmember and horns, gives you the same amount of drop as a rather spendy dropped axle.
With this set up your axle moves forward about 3" or more,which is good or bad,depending on what youre after.

the cons would be the connection to the bones has to be ****** solid,and it puts forces on the bones they werent designed for.
I'm running the perch pins right thru the bones and welding each side,then t******* off the threaded bit.Be aware that the holes have to be at a slight angle to compensate for the bones not being parallel (they angle in when viewed from above)but this may only be on a later,wider axle.
I guess there is also more stress on the bone to axle bolt-im having these machined from high tensile steel just to be sure.

I think if you keep the perches close to the axle as practical its safe.

The photo with the red bones above is too far back in my opinion,but im only a mechanic, not an engineer

in last years Hop -up annual there were two 32 coupes that were mentioned as having this setup,(in the seven at mirage article) but no close up pics unfortunately.

Hope some other opinions come up...

 

[ QUOTE ]
Will I regret doing it this way.

[/ QUOTE ] There should be something on this in the TechOmatic,the subject comes up regularly.Basically,if the spring or shackle or perch breaks your frame rails will jam into the steering.Or if the tie rod is out front,the frame and oil pan will dig into the ground.BTW,this is the same set up I plan on using.

 

Tuck was considering this style for his roadster.I don't know if he changed his mind or not.

 

I figured as much concerning the frame digging into the ground upon breakage......such is life with a suicide front end, eh?

Anyhow, the next question I have (hope I'm not hijacking this post too much) is what is the best way to make sure this set up does NOT come loose from the bones?

I like what was already mentioned, bolting AND welding.

Any other tricks or sure fire solutions concerning that area?

 

If the load is carried by both sides of the tube,and there are no stress risers,it is less likely to fail.

 

Good advice Unkl,
Dunno if its because im using a later axle and spindles,but the axle will hit the ch***is and leave an inch or so down to the steering tierod,so i guess im fairly safe.

 

I just rambled through some of my files and found these two pics.
first one is the Shine truck.
Second is an unknown T-bucket.
Anyone see any problems with these set ups?

 

The T-bucket

 

Doesnt running the steering rod in front **** up the ackerman effect?
the distance back to the spring from the axle on that T worries me...
and Shines truck looks a little spindly to me,The weakest link appears to be the bolts from the batwing to the hairpins,as all spring force has to go thru these...not a critisism, just looks fragile.

 

The T-bucket needs a longer spring,so the perches don't have to stick out so far from the bones.

 

I am very happy with the set up on my roadster. It is not mounted like the pic shows, that was just in the mock up stages. I used 5 degree perches from TCI. and welded a threaded bung into the bone. Works great for me.

 

Definitely things to think about...

Anyone else got any pics?

 

I haven't done it yet. Still in the parts gathering process. But here is a picture of the bones I plan on running. I have read and heard that mounting the spring on the bone drops the front as much as a 3 or 4 inch drop axle. These bones (46 - 48) look to me like I will get a bit more with the step.

 

I've seen plenty of cars that used this type of set up and had no problems, but most of them were fairly light cars.


That said I was around in the early 70's when a lot of Ford front wishbones got cut up to extend old Harley Springers during the Chopper Craze. As another poster said, the bones were not designed for this kind of load. I have seen some fairly significant differences in wall gauge thickness in the old Ford bones that were cut up. I also saw some that got pulled out of piles of bones that had been sitting for years in old junkyards. Some of those had some rust problems internally from rainwater getting into small holes that had been drilled in the bones. You probably want to reinforce the area where you are going to weld the spring perch and make sure the welding is "spot on".

 

Thanks for all the feedback.It looks like this set-up just might work out alright on a light car like the T that this is for.

 

my car has the spring mounted on the wishbones, in an attempt to get the spring behind the grill and the axle in front of the grill,,,
my track rod is behind the axle but space is a bit tight,

my spring is a little long as the shackles are at too shallow angle

but I havn't run it yet, so i can't say for certain how it will be yet, but I feel it is a sound system

Akerman stering can still work with the trackrod in front of the axle but the line drawn through the track rod ends through the king pins still has to intersect on or aroung the rear axle center



I'm not sure about using clevises in bending on Shines truck, I thought they were only for use in tension or compression, but with the spring monuted on the wishbone the spring force is through the clevises ,,

UKAde

 

That's my roadster in the first pic. Every car I do has that setup It seems to work for me. Never had a problem. Lemme tell a open wheel car is dangerous and anything can break on them so do what you want I just do what I do cause it looks cool and it gets em low and performs on the street well. thanks drew

 

nuther

 

Heres how I did mine with hairpins, you could do the same with wishbones, but I'd weld a sleeve in the hole that you drilled in the bones. My "perch bolts " are 5/8" bolts TIG welded to schedule 80 pipe. I guesseted my hairpins, and used sleeves to weld to rather than welding right to the tubing. I have been pounding it to hell and it seems to hold up just fine. as you can see in the pics, I was unsure of how it was going to work so I added a couple of "adjustment holes" for the setup.... but it ended up right where I wanted it. I wouldn't be scared, just weld stuff good and use "good bolts"... Lukester

 

here is another pic. ... Lukester

 

i have a question. i have an axle from the 50's that has the spring mounted to the drop axle (tube) on the top. i ***umed mine was wrong because if its mounted staright it will slap the axle.

does this mean that it should be mounted at an angle?

 

I am in the process of doing this to my touring (ditched the 1/4E setup). What I am doing is welding a piece of thickwall DOM tubing into the bone. A T-bucket style spring pivot is then going through it with the nut on the outside of the bone. It will pivot like an adustable spring perch.

I am still up in the air however on my tie-rod location. When my new spring gets here I am going to get creative with it. I am hoping by dropping my 40 steering arms I get enough clearance so my frame doesnt bottom out on the tie-rod!!!!!!

 

[ QUOTE ]
I am hoping by dropping my 40 steering arms I get enough clearance so my frame doesnt bottom out on the tie-rod!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
I was planning on running the tie rod on the back,both for getting the desired amount of Akerman and for appearance.The spring was going on the bones right above the tierod.
But now Kustombuilder has me all confused with his 7" dropped axle plans. I wish I had a brain.

 

Unk, that is what I am planning to do exactly. By dropping my arms they should get a little shorter which will let me move the axle closer to the grill (a look I am starting to dig)

Lukester, how much travel does you front end have? I mean, when the spring compresses how far does the frame move downward?

 

[ QUOTE ]
... which will let me move the axle closer to the grill.

[/ QUOTE ] Jimmy Shine made longer steering arms,out of steel,to get enough room for the rad shell between the axle and tierod.