Technical spring behind the axel head scratch questions

Guess I never paid much atention , but once I noticed... I keep see'n this... mostly on rat rods and home built stuff.... the practice of splitting the wishbone and welding the spring Perch to the wishbone ??? seems to me that all kinds of weird stuff would start happening..

kinda like having a wheel barrow full of concrete and feel the weight transfer in the handle.... doesn't doing this put a lot of stress on the spring perch, and also on the heim joint.. not to mention what could happen hitting a pot hole

 

in this pic, what would keep the axel from shifting side to side ( no panard bar) and what happens when you hit a bump on one side??

 

If done right it shouldn’t be any different than what Ford did with the spring in front from 35-48. If done wrong then that’s the problem of the builder. I see it as keeping the spring close to the axle as the key. And very strong perches.

 

thanks for the reply!... on your post,wasn't a single mount wishbone a major part of the geometry??

which leads to another question....I know guys have split wishbones for longer than they put 32 griles on model A's but why??? with a wishbone if you hit a bump on the left it puts more load on the right tire... with split it limits wheel travel and does opposite... correct???

 

Wishbones were split to make room for transmissions other than early Ford.

 

here's my thought, and I haven't tried it to see on the pic above, lets say you put the front tires on scales... then jacked up one side.... my thought is as you jacked up one side the weight would less'n on the other instead of increase....???????????

 

I do agree that a Ford wishbone works better as a triangle. But splitting has been done since the beginning of time.

 

so it's the SILVER WIENER deal??? i've seen many A's with stock or 39 trans with the wish bone split...

 

In this example the spring is too long , if it were the proper length , the shackles would be at 45* & the spring would be in tension thus negating the need for a panhard ( in a side delivery steering application, cross steer you'd still need a panhard) .

 

Splitting the bones or using Curtiss ( hairpin) style radius rods allows the chassis to be lowered significantly , lowering the chassis offers a lower center of gravity for less body roll , increasing cornering stability . You loose suspension articulation in favor of better high speed cornering , everything's a trade off .

 

what started the 4 bar idea?? my opinion the hair pins are better, that being said I've removed many of 4 bars and went to hair pins... mostly because the the lower mount drags to close the pavement, that and I don't like the look on a "Traditional" hot rod... but thats just my deal...

 

there's some evolution for you,... and has come to the wrong is now right....and with all due respect.. did you notice that when you type panhard is tells you it's miss spelled??? that's because there is no such thing... but as time has passed the mistake has over come the right and so common the next generation states as fact... not trying to bust your balls, and thanks for the reply, and would love to hang with you and talk hot rods....
but,... it's a panard bar

 

how much shorter??? seems there's a multitude of stuff that looks wrong to me...like too many leafs out of the pack..... but,... there's a lot of old cars built to the looks good side, compared to the works good...

 

thanks again for posting.. my quest is to own a car somewhat like whats in you avatar..so some questions... what wheel base is it , and how sharp does it turn? and do you have a pic of how the front axel is mounted??? and next are you happy with the way it handles...I'm looking at a car with the spring behind , and with out measuring... looks like it's stretched about a foot on the wheel base.. with king pin spindles it seems to me that it would greatly reduce turning radius

 

You seem to have a lot of preconceived ideas , many seem off . My wheelbase is 103" . I can do a u turn on a 2 lane blacktop ( without sliding the rear) Goes straight a@ 130 , goes around corners like it's on slots , yeah , I'm pleased with it , 50k miles worth . As an example , go to speedway motors & look at tube axle / spring behind front ends . Had to get a new tablet & can't find how to take , retrieve or post pictures yet ,I ll figure it out ( maybe )

 

As I'm reading this, I'm wondering if you are asking to learn, or if you are asking with the hope someone will agree with what you want to hear? I'm leaning towards you are looking for someone to agree with you.

The more you criticize the people who respond, the less responses your going to get. Good luck.

 

Could be asking because he's argumentative & bored

 

On my T I have spring behind, hairpins, no panard bar, heck I don't even have front shocks, been on the road for 17 years.
I have no issues with anything, car literally handles like it's on rails, transversing driveway aprons, straight line acceleration or just cruising down the highway.

 

Despite having a name that sounds mechanical, the Panhard bar is actually named for a person and an automotive company. The word comes from one of the earliest auto manufacturers, Panhard. This French company, originally Panhard-Levassor, was founded by Rene Panhard and Emile Levassor in 1887. (Feb 26, 2024) Panhard is the man who gets credit for inventing the Panhard bar in the early 20th century.

 

His screen name is somewhat revealing….
I think you’ll find that the word for the lateral control bar is Panhard, an old car company that used that part in their suspension design years ago. Panard is something else entirely. Spellcheck sometimes wants to capitalize the P because it is a proper name of a person or company.
Aside from the fact that the modern 4-bar design doesn’t fit the “traditional” model aesthetically, it is the best way to control the old fashioned solid axle from an engineering standpoint. The stock triangle wishbone being a close second. All of the other designs, like hairpins and split wishbones impart twisting loads that the axle doesn’t need to see. They also can restrict the turn radius, but how important that is, is up to the builder.
The reality is, there are plenty of crappy modifications (like the one pictured) done to hot rods that “work fine”, it’s all relative to your expectations. Sometimes style takes precedence over ideal function.

 

thanks for the post, I'll clear up the screen name first....close to 30 yrs ago I signed up to hot boat,..had to come up with a screen name...sooo... I had 2 force off shore boats... and my garage was full.. wanted something to to tie my self to the boats I had... Candy, the owner of Force said,.. how bout 2 forcefull, you have 2 boats and the garage is full.... turned out to be not that good of a screen name,.. LOL... most take it the wrong way...but, so many know me by that name, or 2FF... the day I joined my phone blew up.. buddies were like WTF you doing on that site, you won't last a week,


so,

as far as the panard bar, and thats what it was 40 yrs ago when I had las vegas street rods I was ordering parts and the ol timer taking the order corrected me when i asked for a panhard bar.... now if you do a search.. part sellers advertise it both ways... I just don't see welding spring perches to wish bones as a good idea... the car i'm looking at has what I think about6 a 120'' wb...and I was thinking that if I got it I would i would put a model A cross member and move the axel back.....it's one of those deals the more you talk to them, the more wrong you find out.... like.. we only put about 20miles on it since it was built

while in the boating mode and my son playing travel hockey, took about a 15 yr break for hot rods...
it's a new game thats for sure
lol... cam across the GOW deal.... had to stop and think.... last time I heard that was 60 yrs ago when my grampa said it to my dad..." I see you gow'd that new car up already"... both were from modesto

 

It is Panhard, not panhard (or panard, even).

Panhard is capitalized, as it is a proper name.

Panhard Automobile Company, 1887-2018, France.


It is being marked as misspelled for that reason.

The Panhard rod was invented early in the previous century, by that company.

 

If you say Panhard five times real fast it sounds like Panhead!
But that's for another thread (forum).

 

I wonder if I should tell him that Axel is a fine, but somewhat uncommon name for a boy, and not a car part

 

I am enjoying this thread. "C'est le panard"........
Rene Panhard is probably turning in his grave right now.
I am sure I will be corrected.

 

Even though they are split don’t they still make a triangle in space somewhere as they are angled in.

 

Yes, but the system no longer articulates at the rearmost point of the triangle. When bones are split it introduces bind.
That has it's good side though. It gives some anti-roll to the system.

 

thanks for agreeing with me, like I said , my post reads that I called it a pan-hard bar, the ol timer corrected me and said it was a panard bar... so rather than argue with the old guy i said,... what ever just send the part.... I still call it a pan-hard bar, and was wondering if the panard bar deal was some ol timers slang... kinda like asking about turning radius on a 20'' stretched wb 27 model T, the question was never answered... so be it...

 

"Panard" is how it's pronounced, "Panhard" is how it's spelled.

 

if you go back and read my post... I simply asked what wheel base and how sharp does it turn, so thanks for your post.... but what do you think would happen if you stretched the wb a foot or so??? thats what they did to the car I'm looking at... even if it does work, if I buy it I will shorten the wb back to 102-105 or so just for the look...