Starting an engine with oil but no water

If you and as you call him your partner in crime professional diesel mechanic built this engine and don"t have enough confidence in your work to expect oil leaks might be a good idea to hook up the cooling system and not take a chance on screwing it up.Your money.

 

can't see any good reason to start a new motor with no cooling system. I've had a few new motors in my time, all of them were ready to drive when I started them for the first time.

your friend is goofy

 

Yes, all the time. It won't hurt the engine.

edit: I wouldn't do this with a new engine, and normally it's without the water pump belt.

 

I'm in that boat myself as we speak. A new engine with a new cam. I say don't rush it. I filled the radiator and I've got a leak that I can't find yet. old eyes.

I did discover that Rislone is making a new additive with the Zinc that is missing from most of the oils today. Look on the label (they make 2 additives) it says right on the bottle that it restores the zinc to the new oils for use in the older engines. 10 bucks a qt at Auto Zone. I added a qt. I've had good luck with Rislone products in the past. We'll see. I hate the shipping and handling charges of mail order.

I don't think we can go by past experience when they keep changing the oils and fuels from what we used to use back in the day. I'd rather err on the safe side than have to buy a new engine because I was rushing it.

Once I get it to hold water, it's show time.

 

Your buddy would never work on anything of mine after making that statement- Diesel or otherwise. A quickie fire of a used engine to check condition, sure- very quick. New engine with a new cam, RU****ingkiddingme? Cam breakin (or ruination) starts immediately- there's no grace period.

BTW, I used to know a crusty old Diesel mechanic (now deceased) who had started out as a motormac on a destroyer in WII, became a CAT mechanic at home, master mechanic, then shop foreman and troubleshooter for a large CAT dealership, and was working for a local contractor just before retirement. Great guy, one of those old wirey, leather-skinned old guys, BTDT, and could do anything with those old Diesels. We had five gas pickups, Chebbie, Ford, and Dodge, and they ALL ran like ****, wouldn't idle, and ate plugs, drove us nuts. He'd screw in a set of plugs, they'd run a little better for a few days, and start dropping cylinders again. One day he shook his head and told me "those little screws on the carburetor just mystify me, I just can't figure out how they work." No ego problems, just truly looking for an answer. I told him the way my gramps taught me, just about any carb will get going with a starting point of about 1-1/4 turns out, and adjust from there- so he let me try it. Had that old Dodge 318 purring in 5 min, and he was soooo happy, shook my hand and thanked me- which was a little humbling after all the stuff he'd taught me about big Diesels and cable controls, oil clutches, tracks 'n rollers, etc. He was so focused on the A-to-B settings of the old Diesels, adjust the valves, run the racks, and it runs right, bada bing bada boom, that those idle mix screws were like voodoo and witchcraft to him. I don't think he ever really understood them, but after that he just set everything at 1-1/4, and that was OK, they ran a helluva lot better than before LOL

 

There ya go- one of the smartest comments I've heard. The oil reformulation is a fact, it ain't going away, and if you want to run flat-tappet cams, you need to educate yourself about it, separate the hooey from the fact, and not rely on the good 'ol days or "I think" or "this old guy says"

 

Not saying this is what you should do, An engine shop out here that does a lot of rebuilds has a stand with another running engine mounted to it , they load the new/rebuilt long block to it (without plugs) and hook up the cranks, fire up the mule engine, throttle it up to cam break-in RPM and let it go for 15 minutes. No heat,no timing, no carb issues and no worries that the customer broke the cam in wrong.

 

What he said ^^^

And cam break in starts with intial start.....not" I only ran it for 2-3 mins, now Ill break the cam in"

Also compairing engines built to run without coolant and ones that are ...is apples and oranges

Tony

 

I dont have a problem with no water and no water pump belt for a few minutes in and of itself, HOWEVER, once I get a motor with a new flat-tappet cam lit, I aint shutting it down until cam break-in is completed, unless I absolutely have to. PLUS I cant see any advantage to starting it with no water.

 

Ok, I'm on break checking HAMB and this caught my attention. There is nothing wrong with a dry start engine. I've been doing this for 40 yrs, I start the engine after fully priming the oiling system and pumping fuel to the carb. A quick shot of starting either will aid the start up. As the engine starts bring it to a fast idle for about 30 seconds to a minute. Now shut the engine off and allow it to cool to room temperature, at this time re torque the cylinder heads and after torquing the heads add coolant and refire the engine to a 1500 rpm idle for about 5 minutes. This allows you to so call break the engine in and look for any oil leaks at the pan gasket or intake manifold. Before shutting off engine lower the idle to your desired rpm, recheck the timing setting and adjust the carb low speed. The initial firing does not hurt the engine used or new, If you followed the cam manufactures specifications and applied a liberal amount of cam breaking lube to the ***embly, coated the lifters with lube before you ****on up the intake and had full oil pressure during start up you will not damage the cam shaft.

There is considerable talk of the lack of zinc in oil and the lack of zinc producing an issue with cam shaft wear. This snake oil salesmanship, If you are having an issue with a cam deteriorating in the initial start up of the engine you have something more wrong than lack of zinc in the lube. In most cases it is the lack of sufficient lubricant or more important too high a valve spring pressure on the lifter. To high a spring pressure makes the lifter body act like a squeegee and forces the oil out from under the lifter and runs the cam dry. I believe most flat tappet cams the spring pressure is 125-140 lbs. Roller cams have different higher specs. You can also compound this cam issue with a spring not matched for the lift of the cam and a spring bind effect when the coils of the spring bottom out on each other. So if you have wiped out a cam you probably did something wrong.

Anyway to respond to your initial question will it damage your engine to start it up and run it with out coolant for a short period of time my answer is no.

 

I would agree. But if your going to do it at least fill the block with water and run it for a very short time.

 

ive been taught its supposed to be good for the piston rings and i believe head gaskets.ive done it on all my motors including my round track motors never had any problems.any body else heard of this.

 

Sorry, I'm not trying to jack the thread but i do have a question related to this. I recently purchased a Comp cam and Comp lifters from a friend that he installed, broke in and ran for about 20 miles (too big for his taste). It was then pulled and sold to me. When i got the cam and lifters it still looked brand new. I have since installed it in my 350 and i have also been considering firing it up dry (no cooling). When the cooling system is hooked up, should i go back thru the break in process again or will it run ok as is? I WILL be running an oil additive with zinc for the first start up.

 

This is all just my opinion. From the time the thing turns over once it has wiped %95 of the cam lube off. The idea is to fire it as quickly as possible and get oil on the cam. Preoiling the system does very little to oil the cam. The cams major source of lube is splash from the crank. A lot of aftermarket rods do not have the piss hole on the parting line that helps this happen.Thats why it needs to start up fast instead of grinding away setting timing ,getting fuel to the carb ect. Once it fires and the splash starts you don't want to shut it off and give the oil a chance to drain off the lobes. As far as the used cam and lifters go think about what your saying. I would bet when it was removed the lifters were not marked so they were installed on the same lobe. The lifter bores and the cam bores are not the same in every engine. Close but not the same. If the cam was broken in on a specific lobe and the next engine was a few thousands different angle or alignment then the break in wouldn't keep the lifter in the same place or plane. You can run the cam and the used lifters for awhile,you may get lucky and if not the iron from the cam and lifter will get in the bearings and make threads on the crank. But you may get lucky

 

Hey Wolfman.. Just make sure the lifters go on the same lobe that they were "broken in" on.. And hook up a radiator!!

 

If you run the water pump with no coolant it will damage the seal, now wether it just shortens the life or causes to fail immediately is a toss of the dice. Anyone that gives advice otherwise is doing a disservice to others. If there is no belt on the water pump and it isn't turning then it won't damage it.

 

I just got a blown 354 from Big Al and in his initial fire up instructions says to dry fire it for 10 or so seconds to get some temp into the block , check for leaks then put in the coolant . He has built plenty of good running motors in his time .

 

The lifters were all mixed up/out of order when they arrived. I am guessing, to be on the safe side i should just break it in again. It is no biggy for me to go thru the break in process again so i would rather play it safe than cut corners and be sorry i did. I did put fresh cam lube on everything before installing. I plan to fire it in the next few weeks so hopefully it will all work out ok. Thanks for the input guys.

 

New lifters on a used cam is Ok,
Used lifters on a new cam No-way
If the lifters are mixed up from break-in ...do your self a favor get a new set of lifters OR you can change both cam and lifters shortly after

Tony

 

Yep- if the guy you bought it from didn't keep the lifters in order, I'd take it back and get my money back- it's pretty well known that you have to keep the lifters on the same lobes. If you do keep it, you'll need new lifters

 

Regardless of whether or not a dry cooling system will actually hurt the motor ... a lot of you seem to think that running it with NO water is about the same as filling it with water that isn't circulating.

If this was true, we'd all be pumping air through our radiators, it's cheaper, and it would never freeze. Just the presence of water is going to make a difference.

 

and in a few weeks you'll be spinning bearings too.

new lifters and re break in the cam.

as for the the original question, new motor not broken in no way I'd run without cooling, as you need to run it for a half hour or so to break in the cam.

old motor used and already broke in, no problem fire away.

 

why?