Technical "Stealing" ergonomics.

Lets face it, many older cars, and many rod and customs are not all that comfortable to drive.

It good news it is possible, in many cases, to fix this, and yes, even without changing the look.

Modern car manufacturers have dumped millions per make into making cars comfortable. A great many of us have a modern car that we drive daily, or at least have a spouse that has one. It is hard to find an uncomfortable new car these days.

The good news is that all you need is a tape measure, pencil, angle finder, a pair scissors, some poster board, and a plumb bob to clone a vehicle's ergonomics.

Start with a comfortable vehicle. Pick one that is physically similar to the proportions of your build.

Cut the posterboard to fit in the footwell between the gas pedal, and as far under the driver's seat as you can get.

Mark the position of the base of the gas pedal on the poster board.

Hang the plumb bob on the bottom of the steering wheel, and mark that too, both fore and aft, to establish center. If it is over the seat, try to get the mark on the paper where it would be if the seat were not there.

Hang the plumb bob over the front of the seat and mark the poster board for that too.

Measure the height of the front of the seat, and the seat angle.

Measure the angle of the steering wheel, and the height to the center.

Now do the same for what you are working with. You will likely find that the dimensions are radically different. That's probably why you are uncomfortable.

The closer you can get them to the modern standard, the more comfortable you will be. Sometimes that just means moving the seat a little, changing the height and angle a bit.

If you are building from scratch, just set everything there during the build.

I do this with all of my builds, whenever possible. Granted, a T or an A, or the like leaves you with fewer options, but there is almost always something you can do.

I just changed the height and angle of the bench seat in a really nice OT C10. There were no changes to the look.

The leg cramps and back pain that the owner experienced on long drives have disappeared.

 

Modern cars let you adjust a lot of those variables, with 8 way power seats, tilt/tele columns, and even adjustable pedals. So...it's a great idea to figure out what the adjustment is for YOU, and build the old car to match.

I've taken time to put the parts in the right place for me to be comfy when building a car, but I never figured out that I should just copy the new car. Great idea!

 

Being uncomfortable is traditional
The oddity of things being in strange locations is part of the cool factor.
Reaching thru the steering wheel to turn on the wipers or heater
The radio half way across the dash
Dim interior lighting
Vacuum wipers that slow down
Dimmer on the floor
Starter switch on the floor
Wind noise
Rattles
Making up the excuses to stop so I can stretch
All that is part of the fun for me

we would hide switches and controls under the dash just to have a clean look.

Form over function

 

My Falcon is built to the VAG Group-A specifications (Golf/Jetta/A3, etc.), and the A is being built to the VAG 4S specifications (gen2 Audi A8, Lambo Hurrican).

The former is very easy to drive long distances. The latter will be too, if my old ass can get in and out of it.

 

You can keep all of that, and still move your seat. and lower the steering column 1-inch.

Sometimes that's all it takes.

Your bladder will still make you stop periodically.

 

We had customers come in for a “fitting”
Had an adjustable temporary column mount.
We would fit the pedals, shifter, steering wheel and even carve the seat foam to fit their butts.

 

This is can be what separates a driver from a garage ornament.

Happy customers come back for more, and tell others what you did!

 

All jokes aside. Even with my beater bus the column, pedals, seat and shifter was built to suit me.
Same with a body dropped truck we built at school. Lost 4 inches of head room “raising” the floor.
so we lose the factory seat risers and scoot the seat back. Used a short student and one taller than me to position the seat. Next is dropping the column and bending the shifter to fit better.

I’ll leave my merc as is. It’s not very ergonomic but that kinda is why it’s cool.

 

There is a ton of info online.
https://www.buildyourownracecar.com/race-car-driver-ergonomics-and-design/
If at all possible, have someone help you measure while you are in place and have padding and shims to help 'fit' better. If there is room, having adjustable seat back, pedals and steering can help. If you have driven long distances, you know just changing one of these after a few hours makes a big difference.

Yes, this steering angle and the pedal to back of body are never going to be 'modern', but I have made changes to make it much better.

 

I drove a company provided 2019 ford escape for my commuter/work vehicle for 4 years. 77 miles each way to/from the office. Site visits or meetings down in Connecticut or western Massachusetts. The most uncomfortable vehicle I've ever been in or driven. But company gas card, so there was that.
My A coupe is extremely comfortable. I spent alot of time positioning the 46 cross steer box and the 86 astrovan bench seat.

 

The floor in my A is channeled, the old-school way, with the floor now even with the bottom of the frame rails.

While the body is down 4-inches, the floor is too, unlike a body-drop.

 

Thanks for the hints on laying out the drivers area. I was very lucky when I built the 38 Chevy and 53 Studebaker because both were comfortable. The 27 roadster...well I should have had the steering column a couple of inches higher as I can hardly get in it and a big guy (not that big) doesn't have enough room for the wheel and his legs, the seat is OK and it is as far back as possible unless I stretch the body. That will be the last of that style of car I will build

 

Hmm. Just picked up a new daily for Carina this past Monday. My butt hurt (8 way adjustable at that) and all that just touch the screen versus a knob is frustrating. I’m with @anthony myrick . Give me an already uncomfortable old school ride.

 

Your butt is 8-way adjustable?!

 

I wish.

 

Instructions unclear, chopped and channeled too much, knees at chest level. Get the Crisco to lather me up and get the longest pry bar you can to pluck me out. Am stuck. Neck stiff.

 

Very true! I copied my DD into my A. Seat angle, steering, pedals, etc...... But then, you've seen it! LOL! No need to be uncomfortable.................Wise ide'rs! Merry Christmas!

 

One of the biggest things that you can do is raise the front of the seat, so that your weight is supported by your legs, and not by just your butt. Also angle the seat back to match if you can. It may mean removing some padding in the seat back, or modifying the frame a bit. A seat with almost flat bottom, and an upright back, is not going to be comfortable unless it is pretty high off the floor. Which is not usually possible in a cramped hot rod.

Good idea to copy the ergonomics of a car you find comfortable. At the very least you can get a good starting point.

 

Ha ha ha.....

 

Had new foam put in the bucket seats of my coupe. Made a big difference in comfort. Didn't make any difference with my bladder.

 

I spend a lot of time setting up the drivers area when I build a Hot Rod. My daily driver 56 pickup has over 200,000 miles on it since I built it, I have driven it on several long road trips without discomfort. It does have an early 90s Chevy pickup bench and a tilt column. Even my 59 Vette isn't terrible , I shortened the column as much as possible and pushed the seat back as far is it would go. I drive a lot of Hot Rods at the shop and it amazes me at how horrible some are to drive...

 

My 32 sedan is surprisingly comfortable with stock seats, stock pedals, and steering wheel in mostly the stock position. The seats are way bouncier than new cars, and I lay my forearms across the steering wheel when I drive. New engineers would laugh at both those things. The only real things I wish were different was a bit more bolster on the sides of the seat bottom, and a transmission hump to lay the side of my foot on for long drives. I do have a stock pedal rest that kinda works for my foot, and I roll up a bath towel to make a temporary bolster for highway trips.

Any future projects will probably use firm foam instead of springs in the seat bottom, and will try to build some unobtrusive bolster into them.

 

I made a hat with a measuring thing on top so I could work out the height for the frame of my carson top, so I could replicate the roof height of my wife's DD while I was sitting in the car. She walked in on me and thought I had just landed from Neptune. I tried to copy the layout of the pedals, seats, etc from a DD, and got it about the same, but I still have my chiropractor's number handy after a 2 hour drive, just in case.

 

When I build a new ride, I spend a lot of time getting the seat, the steering wheel, and the pedals into a position that is very comfortable to me. Someone else driving my car may not like it as well as I do, but it works very well for me.

I find the seats on most modern cars are pretty uncomfortable. The side bolsters are often too close together.

Even at that, there are those vehicles that I just couldn't make work well enough, that 39 Dodge pickup was the worst one for me. Just couldn't get things right, even after moving everything inside the cab 3 times. It was just too small for this fat old man. My wife sure liked driving it though, and so did the guy that was 4" shorter then I was that bought the truck.

 

Hello,

Finally, after the terrible tow incident (crazy stories towing thread), we arrived at our house and looked at what we had just bought. These are not the actual photos, but ones from the internet. The Model A looked very similar, but with more faded paint and original color missing from various surfaces. even the left rear fender had a dent in it.

My brother driving the 51 yellow Oldsmobile sedan and me separated by a thick dock line we got from a commercial boating shop near our house, steering like crazy with the brakes dragging to keep the line taut. What a scene and we had to cross two major intersections, too…
Thanks, @themoose
The Model A was a perfect car to get started in hot rodding. We cleaned up the whole car, and tried to start the engine. After changing the oil, water, gasoline, and spark plugs, it actually fired up and ran well. (months before, we had seen the old man driving the Model A around the neighborhood.) Obviously, we took it for a spin around the block. It smelled awful inside, but ran well enough to get us around several more blocks. When we got back to our house, we kept looking at this starting point of a car and though about what we wanted to do to make it go fast.

I had dreams that since my brother already had his 51 Olds, this would be my first car. I was looking forward to building something nice and fast. Flathead, 3 carbs, finned heads, Moon Discs, etc. Well, since my piggy bank was nil, dreams did not last very long.

Within three weeks, my brother had already changed his/our dream hot rod, race car build into getting a new 1958 Chevy Impala to use at the drags and as a driver to get to and from work/school. He had tons of money saved up and wanted to sell this Model A to add to his cash reserves for the new car. Well, there went my 13 year old kid’s first car dream…

It was fun driving the Model A around the block. We sold the Model A for $150 and that was that.
This is what we talked about and proposed for the final Model A build. A 301 SBC motor with a Paxton supercharger… etc.

When my brother and I bought an old Model A coupe, our thoughts were to make it into a dual purpose street daily driver and weekend racer at our local Lion’s Dragstrip. We knew something was going to hinder us as we sat inside the cab with the stock seats. The two teenagers did not have much “wiggle” room. We were not huge by any standards, but for young teens, two of us in a small cab like the Model A coupe was going to be a challenge.

Our friend’s 34 Ford 5 window coupe seemed larger and when two teenagers were inside, had plenty of room for stretching out and relaxing on short road trips. But for us, we were already looking into small sporty car bucket seats like our friend’s little sports car. Those seats were not only comfortable, but smaller than most seats. They also adjusted the back in many different degrees of comfort. Not so on the Model A seatback. Or, for that matter, at the time any Detroit stationary seat back that only went forward and back.

Jnaki

The smaller sporty car bucket seats looked good, are/were very comfortable and adjust to any size body type. So, we knew our local junkyards had plenty of those adjustable bucket seats. If, and when they were to be installed, they would be moved back as far as possible and set up so it would still be comfortable.

We sold the Model A within a month and the next time we considered a bucket seat installation was in our 1940 Willys Coupe we started to build for the B/Gas or C/Gas class competition. We selected those smaller sporty car seats and could adjust them to fit either brother, behind the wheel or as a passenger.

People are still in the standard bench seat mode and if that is the case, they take up the normal amount of space. But for folks in the 5’9” to 6 feet height and proportioned body style, they will cramp most comfortable driving positions. YRMV
Similar style sporty car bucket seats with adjustable backs. They had their own bottom of the seat mounts that did not take much to adjust and install...

NOTE:

After our post hospital stay for my brother gave us a clear sight as to what we would like to have built next when all things got back to normal. We had various important parts sitting under a large canvas tarp in the backyard garage and we did not go back there regularly, except when our mom went visiting her friends or went shopping.

One thing was left over parts still gathering dust from our Willys Coupe days. The other was do we still want to build something else to continue our foray into drag racing and engine builds? We had a small speed shop business going with a business license and were able to get parts at a good discount. But, we were not in it for the money, at the time. We just wanted to spend less on our own builds and get parts for our friends when necessary.

So, the first idea was a roadster pickup to keep within a nice body and old hot rod look, not a newer Chevy or Ford full fender truck. So, we kept looking for a good start in the RPU arena. But the few Model A coupes we sat in, including our own early coupe we bought in 1957 gave us a tight fitting seating arrangement for two growing teenage boys. That was stock seating and we still needed more room. No one at the time was lengthening the overall body, doors or roof lines. They just modified the pedals and seats pushed back as far as possible.

In our measurements in the Model A coupe, it was similar to a roadster pickup. Not a lot of room the way it came with the stock seats, steering wheel and pedals. So, we decided to get some smaller foreign car bucket seats. Those were plentiful in the local junk yards. Then if that was ok, we were good with the shoulder to shoulder fit. But it was the pedal to seat arrangement that threw us for a loop.

By the time we started throwing out ideas, the Model A coupe, the 51 Oldsmobile disappeared and a new 58 Impala rolled up in our driveway in 1957. So, we no longer had the worry about feeling like captured canned sardines in the cockpit.

These days, people lengthen the doors, the cab and if done right, the look of the RPU is not harmed and the overall design is pleasing. There are several good examples on the HAMB hot rod builders for the lengthening of an RPU.

Note 2:

The whole idea is to get more room for comfort driving. An extended cab certainly would solve the overall dimensions and give plenty of room. But, from an outside prospective at the extended cab, it does not stay within the original Model A truck cab style. A “big” extension would make the “butt end” too big and out of proportion.

The larger, better proportions in design...

The version on the left is relatively stock, but it does need something. So, a short top chop and shortened bed still keeps the proportion, yet it makes the Model A truck look stock appearing. Only those totally inspecting the mods would criticize the larger door and shortened bed. But a longer bed looks too lengthy and hangs over too much. Room for the slight enlargement has to come from somewhere, so the bed gets shortened and the cab technically, moves back a few inches with a wider door and top.

The idea came from a different truck modification that I saw being done for a huge guy, around 6’6” and he did not fit in the stock cab. So, the builders extended the doors and lengthened the cab roof just a tad to give the space necessary for a comfortable driving position. The plus/loss came from the shortened bed. The other option was to modify the pedal position to move it farther into the motor compartment if there is room. Most of the time there is no more room, so the only way to go is back to toward the bed.

I got an inspiration many drawings ago. An open roadster with anyone’s longer legs might be a challenge. Most roadsters were a little cramped as the generations grew. Even back in 1960, my brother and I had thoughts of a Model A roadster pick up for another project, but realized two brothers would not fit without altering/extending the seating area back into the shortened bed.

We were both large for our age and I grew to almost 6’1” and I needed comfort for short or long distance driving. For us, it was a project we liked, but things just moved on in a different direction. The shortened bed was still big enough to haul parts and motors, if needed. Drawing is much easier to see the changes necessary.

Also, sitting in an open roadster with big shoulders and height might be a challenge. Most roadsters were a little cramped as the generations grew in our society. A single driver might be ok, but a little cramped if one is 6 feet or over. So, the only way to get comfortable for the bigger folks is to extend the cab. The bed will be the item that gets shortened to keep the proportions right.

There is only so much room modifying the seats and pedals without compromising driving comfort. Extended arm driving versus cramped bent elbows and the steering wheel intruding on comfort, is no one’s idea of cool cruising. Or safety for that matter… here is an orange Model A drawing I have been tossing around for ideas. For some reason, I added a cab top, then an RPU top and it looked awful, so it had to stay extended cab open roadster style for the RPU.

There is even a nicely finished, red Model A RPU, extended, here on the HAMB built for more room in the cab… check it out...YRMV
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/28-rpu-build-thread-it-will-be-red.703537/
@Never2old

 

This is mine. I've been copying from the MGB in the background.

 

I'm oddly one of the weirdos that modern ergonomics work against. Oddly the only thing I really had to do to make my 53 bel air fit me extremely comfortably was move the gas pedal slightly to the right and go to a smaller steering wheel. A shifter about 6" longer would be nice .....but as it's an auto it's not a big deal

 

It’s wild how such a small car can still be comfortable. My daughter has an MG Midget, and I can fit all 200 pounds and 6 feet of me in it and drive it fine. Getting in and out isn’t easy, but once I’m planted I fit well.

 

I kind of agree with this… But then again, I’m not too terribly old yet either… Just halfway there, so it’s easy for me to say.

Being young is traditional, but I haven’t figured out how to add that to the build sheet yet…

 

My first legal car was Midget when I was in the Army. The foot box wasn't designed for size 12 combat boots.