On a Model A, or T, or anything with a similar wheelbase and front axle width, in order for front steer to have correct Ackerman, the tie rod pivot would need to be somewhere inside the brake ***embly, well past the backing plate, or rotor.
The factory front steer works by having the links angled back so the proper angle between the steering arm and the tie rod is achieved. Impossible to do on solid axle cars. As Gimpy says, the steering arms can be angled out but that is really hard to get right as the wheels and brakes are in the way. I really find it disgusting that Speedway sells ch***ises with the tie rod in front. They are saying it is OK and people copy the design.
I have posted this before here is an example of ford steering arms flipped to the front watch for the tire marks. https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=9b7db54239e01a20bb678cb42ab4e318&action=view slipping tires have loss of traction. Speedway does offer a mustang II 9" rotor brake kit for Chevy spindels that might let you get front steering arms out far enough.
Perfect ackerman is not necessary , it's one of those things where close is just fine ( unless you're canyon carving , and most of our cars aren't good at that anyway) . Speedway knows this week auto manufacturers, with small rotors and the right rims , your handling and tire wear will be fine...some of you " blanket statement " experts need to realize,all rules have parameters..
I have the small mus II rotors with the metric GM calipers. It came with the flat looking steering arms like Speedway sells that takes the heim joint. It's got the cheap U shaped steering arm that has the studs made on it to bolt the spindle on, I took a piece of 1/8 in and welded in it because I didn't trust it. The steering arms set in behind the rotor where the heim bolts. There sees to be varied opinions on this set up, a friend has a 30 A coupe with the tie rod in front and it handles good. He has regular tie rod ends and the steering arms are made like the stock ones only they are reversed. It has what looks like a stock steering box set up.
I also checked the caster on the axle today, as it sets now it is at 4 degrees back at the top. I'll set it at 6 or 7 before I drive it.
It might "handle good". I will trust your judgement. If it were built properly, it might actually handle great. The notion that hotrods are not supposed to corner well is a cop out. Don't settle for less based on the words of those who have settled for less.
And don't kid yourself that a buggy sprung wagon frame can be a formula 1 race car , spend your money and time wisely , not chasing a fool's errand ...
I've got everything to put it together without buying anything, I guess if it doesn't work out I can change it then. I know they don't handle like a sports car, don't expect it to. It's a hot rod, as long as it handles good going straight at speed I'll be happy. I've got a ton of other stuff to worry about in order to get it together by spring, we'll see what happens then I hope.
Corvettes, until very recently, still had transverse leaf springs (aka: buggy springs). I have seen beam axle cars that can turn 0.98G on a 100-foot skidpad. It will handle exactly as good as you build it. That's up to you. Don't allow other people's limited vision be your limit.
my I.H. scout 2 wheel drive axle come from the factory with the tie rod in Front of the axle-and yes the tie rod ends are almost out to the backing plates,but to claim you can't get the ackerman correct on a front steer car is BS
What utter bull ****, a "buggy spring wagon frame" car WILL handle if you pay attention to the basics. I have a split bones front, four bar rear roadster that will scare you how well it handles, literally just like a slot car. The trouble is, some of you guys just bolt **** together because "if it goes straight at speed thats all I care about, it's just a hot rod", I see tube axles and hairpins with big blocks sitting on them, the guy all proud cause its all chrome, just waiting to break and kill someone. DO IT RIGHT, you'll have a car that goes round corners and is impressive to drive, stops in a straight line, hauls *** in a predictable manner for the same cost as just bolting it together. This board is for me to teach you how to build a good car, all of us here know something that all of us here can learn from, thats why the RR crowd isn't welcome.
I have a tube axle with four bars. I also live where I have to drive a fast moving canyon road (CA41). The car handles very well. Drives like a 1950s Triumph sports car, only with a lot more horsepower. Hot rods should be fun. The prodigious horsepower should be what makes them scary. Not unpredictable handling. Good luck with you car. Take advantage of the good advice here.
I guess I need to be more specific. A buggy sprung wagon framed " traditionally built " hot rod isn't gonna handle that well , or does traditionally built apply only when it suits the moderator?? Seems the definition is really fluid around here ...
I think you can still build a traditional car that will handle well, stop well and impress you. It takes more work and the right parts, and after it's done, the proper maintenance, first build yourself a stiff ch***is, thats what I did under my 27, big as possible X member, suitable spring rates compatible with your cars weight, good quality shocks with the dampening that suits your driving style, making sure nothing binds as the suspension goes through its travel, making sure it steers freely and ackerman is as close as you can get it, drum brakes are no impediment to a street car and will do what you want under spirited street driving, it can be done. Education is the thing, building with parts that work well together and putting some thought into how it'll work before the welder comes out.
When designed that way, by a qualified automotive engineer*, proper Ackerman angle can be achieved with front steer. It is very hard to do on a suspension setup using components designed for rear steer. In the case of the OP, obtaining proper Ackerman angle, using his components, will be impossible. *Not just anyone who stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
I'm sure you all use heim joints on each end of your 4 bar set ups, right? I would think that would eliminate any binding. A ladder bar car on the street will bind and puts a lot of stress on things so I know these radius rods will considering they use 2 clevis on the front. I would think 5/8 CM ends should be used. I'm putting a panhard bar on the front. Post some pics of your 4 bar set up if you would. Looking at the split bones set ups, I don't really see how you don't get some binding out of them. I guess it's because of not a lot of suspension travel. That will be all I'll change for now, like I said before, I done have everything to put it together and I'd have to change everything on it. There seems to be several opinions on what works and what don't but I think it'll be fine as long as it's set up right the only thing I don't really like is the radius rods but I do see a bunch of them on hot rods and I haven't heard of 1 breaking but they look like the weak link to me.
I just had a look under my K5 Blazer, the steering arms are right about even with the ball joints. Front steer, solid axle, one piece tie rod. I'm guessing it doesn't have much good Ackerman. Did they not really care because it's a 4x4? Front tires do sequel on a tight paved corner. Only mentioning because it's similar.
The diagram above is the way we checked mine, the old guy in my shop that day brought it up and we took a tape measure, didn't have the body on then, and used it to run back to the rear end.
I think more importantly you seem conflicted with what you have vs what you want, in that case I agree with 31 Vicky, as he alluded to biting the bullet now and getting it over and done as the rest will change Ironically if you are happy with the stance you have , you could accomplish almost same ride height with a mono leaf, c-notch and spring on top of a normal axle , the difference is the smile that the other axle has you loose about 2” of clearance there If you want the tie rod behind the axle with what you have ...I think you could pull that off by making ones like the speedway fabricated ones ,just a bit longer with a couple bends You don’t have to spend $1000s to get a Ford I beam , but it takes a little eBay, internet and swapmeet savy
They aren't similar, and they are not even with the ball joints.. That is a Dedenbear flat-top knuckle. I had them on the front of my Jeep. A more revealing view: The lines of intersection, with wms-to-wms set to 62", on a 101.4" wheelbase, was ~3/8". About as close to perfect as I could get, without a torch (and I had room to make it perfect). On the K5 Blazer, which has a 106.5" wheelbase, it was perfect. Where these were used on pickup trucks and Suburbans, the angle was slightly over-corrected, not under corrected, like the OP. That was a factory gamble, based on sound engineering practices, not driveway guess-work. Do you have stock offset wheels, and stock sized tires on that K5?
Just tossing this out there, but couldn't a person run a single radius rod on one side, to eliminate the binding caused by hairpins.
You're right, on closer inspection the tie rod length is equal to the lower joints but the uppers are move in. I'm running the stock 15x8 rally wheels. Sorry about the side tracking the thread...
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