In my prior life with NYPD I had occasion to recover a number of vehicles that were stolen and registered with fraudulent titles. In most cases the VIN was altered. NYS DMV reports to the NY State Police that the title was declared fraudulent by the state it was represented to be issued by. In most cases I handled, Pennsylvania. Then the State Police Investigator would contact me on cases in Brooklyn and Queens. He didn't want to come down to the city from Hawthorne Barracks and gave me the cases. I would CALL ON THE PHONE the person who had registered the vehicle and tell them a slight untruth that I had the title from NY State and would present it to them as soon as I saw the vehicle and I would make an appointment. It was a lot easier this way than trying to find a vehicle in the city. Plus if there was criminal implications I had the subject and the vehicle together for seizure and arrest. If investigation of the vehicle revealed the true VIN be different from the VIN plate, I would seize the vehicle and take it to the pound. Now comes the problem. If the stolen vehicle alarm was sent before the date of the title transfer, I had a mystery to solve. If the alarm was after the transfer date, the person I have is involved in the fraud and gets arrested. Means he got or had a title and stole a car to match. There are a lot scenarios with VIN switch and title frauds. But the true VIN and its confidential locations are usually identifiable. I took a lot of vehicles away from innocent people that purchased in good faith and I was able in most cases to trace back to the thief. These people are usually out their money and can only pursue civil means for recovery. You can buy a stolen vehicle but it never becomes yours as it subject to a prior claim.
Now I am to believe that you were judge and jury on the subject? I am just curious how you got to decide what was stolen without there being some sort of legal action. I can understand that you would call and lie or tell an untruth to someone who hadn't received a title yet. But maybe you could chime in on the fact that someone called from another state and told someone that they were in possesion of a stolen vehicle and that the local police would be by to pick it up. As a police officer is that something that you would do? Have you ever heard of an officer doing that before? Oh and the locations of theft numbers or vin numbers are really not a secrete I usually have to show the state guy where they are when I buy an out of state vehicle.
Well, this particular case seems to me to just a sorting problem, since old owner, new owner, bike, and 2 titles are all found and known. Authorities just need to go through it all and answer: Does bike # match titles?? If so, is bike number real or enfraudulated? If all matches...history of the titles. One will either be entirely false OR issued legally by some state entity that didn't check very well. One title will prevail, case closed. The person who bought the bike (IF the bike is worth the investment) needs legal advice to see that her title is properly considered and again if value is there and bike is indeed hot to sue whoever did the deception...if there is a person findable with actual money. The police action so far is indeed odd, but might just be rural and a bit trusting since people and locations are known. If that is legit...someone with a badge will make that clear, and that is the time some legal advice is needed to be sure the current owner's interests are represented in the checking. Seems to me people, bike, and papers are all found and known, and the legal truth is just a matter of lining up the numbers. This isn't any sort of search or chase.
Pork n Beaner you apparently dont know much about the legal system. Police make arrests based on reasonable cause. The judge decides the penalty after the jury convicts. The arresting officer acts on facts such as a citizen reporting his property stolen. Once the property is identified as in vehicle identification number the person that has it in his possession has stolen property. The case evolves from there and other factors such as criminal culpability determine whether the DA will pursue prosecution or just return property to its rightful owner. The confidential VIN-s differ from manufacturer to manufacturer and year to year. The later the model, the more there are. Most professional car thieves know where most are but fortunately not all.
I'm very sorry Mr. Hinstray. You did not read your bond document if you have a bonded title. There is no basic concept about this. A bond is not an insurance policy. If you apply for the bond the bonding agency certifies that you have equitable capitol in the event the bond is exercised. If you do not have assets equal to or greater than the valuation of the bond your application will be denied. If you have assets in partnership with a third party those assets must be signed off as equitable to the bonds purpose by that third party. If you have a bonded title you really should go dig up the paper work and read through it. It is only for the protection of the public domain from any type of legal issues that may arise from the activity. It does not a thing to protect your interests. Doubt me? Seek counsel.
Actually I have been through the system more than I would like to admit. I do know how it works real well. You made it sound like you were the one to decide if a crime had been committed and I am glad that you did clarify that it is indeed a matter for a court of law. I am also aware that many police officers are not always on the up and up when it comes to what is the law or their legal authority. This is no reflexion on you. I do believe that you made a good point. You do get to decide if there is sufficient evidence of a crime to persue further action, as in impoundment. You did fail to mention that without a warrent of some sort you would not be doing a numbers inspection on anything in my possesion. At least that has been the case any place that I have lived in these united states. Sure I could be a nice guy and let you look but I most likely will not, I have learned that it is far better to make a public official properly do their appointed task.
As a police officer you called the people and "lied" to them so as to gain access to the property and check the VIN numbers without having to go through the process of properly attaining a search warrant to do this? Awesome! And why would you want to disclose this act of deception "IE- slight untruth" to us? I think we the public would best not be informed of this type of "Law enforcement" White Hats ain't supposed to lie, or at the very least get caught or admit to it. My day is ruined.
I never went to their premises. I made an appointment for them to come to the station house. They came willingly and bring all their documents. It makes it a lot easier to seize the vehicle and if the subject was involved criminally in the theft, I would provide for a ride home. There is a really good chance that we will end there anyway. Remember, I already know the title is a forgery, just not sure of the involvement of the subject. Besides, no where is written in the NYS Code of Criminal Procedure that LEO-s are not allowed to lie during an investigation. You just cannot lie under oath when testifying in court. Sorry I ruined your day. I am glad that there are still people left with your integrity.
So in this situation you are speaking of, the title was not a document that had been legally issued by a state authority, it was a fake. In any instance did you come across a legal title being issued on a stolen titled vehicle? What would the situation be in this case? Have you come across an instance in which a vehicle had a bonded title and had been proven stolen? What would be the outcome of a case like that? Thanks, Frank.
Never heard of a bonded title. I did a number of cases with genuine NYS titles for vehicles with changed VIN tags. Back before NY created 907A document instead of a title for salvage vehicles, wrecks wouldbe purchased from insurance companies and reappear as undamaged vehicles. Someone would steal a similar vehicle and change the VIN tag. The registered owner is not necessarily the perpetrator of the theft. Some are unsuspecting victims that purchased in good faith. These cases take investigation to determine who stole the vehicle and did the transfers. Unfortunately, for the current registrant they always lose the vehicle as it is the rightful property of someone else. They have to pursue recovery via a judgement in civil court.
Francisco, This isn't really worth getting too worked up over......but my experience with a bonded title dates to about twenty years ago in Illinois. I bought an old Plymouth in Memphis, TN with a Bill of Sale but no title. At that time the State of Illinois required that I get an appraisal for the then current value of the car ($300) and obtain a bond for that amount that was good for 3 years. I went to my insurance agent, told him what I needed, he supplied it for the grand sum of $50.00. I supplied evidence of the bond to the State along with a title app and fees and soon received a title. I was specifically informed that the bond would provide compensation for whomever might place a claim against the vehicle during that 3 year period. The vehicle would remain in my possession in exchange for their compensation via the bond. Now, should it happen that the vehicle had been stolen, as opposed to being a 'lost title' or 'abandoned vehicle', I am sure all bets would be off. As it happened, nothing came of it and some years later I sold the car to a friend with the Illinois title I had received and that was processed in a completely normal fashion. As for bonds not being "an insurance policy".....maybe in some technical way they are not, since they are called bonds, not insurance policies. But in my years of business experience, which goes well beyond this title issue, they function in similar fashion to indemnify a named party against some form of specified loss. That is essentially what an insurance policy does, is it not? Just as there are complex forms of insurance, I would expect there are complex forms of bonds, but that doesn't preclude simple forms of either. Ray
We're good I'm not getting all crazy over the topic, it's good civil conversation. I inquired as to the effects of a bond on a title with an attorney. He verified the facts. The bond is only an apparatus of the state in the event that a claim is made, it only protects the state as an entity not you, as a matter of fact it names the state as the holder of the bond, not the person whom registers for it. As an example I have a contractors bond. This bond is for the sum of $20,000, it names the state as the holder against all claimants for the purpose of the state endorsing me as a contractor in good stature. In the event I do a project that does not meet code etc, and I refuse, can not or etc make the project correct, the state will exercise the bond to make said corrections to the project to full fill their obligations for endorsing me as a qualified contractor. The bonding agent will then use the full force of law to collect from me any and all amounts remitted. If I do not square my bonding status I will not be rebonded, if I fight the process I will not be bondable. No Bond, no more contractor. Any way I slice it, I'm it, and there is no insurance for me to go bad against. The same applies on the titles. This to me is one of the things that would scare the hell out of me about ever thinking of applying a title to a vehicle you own. Think about it, you would source a document from who knows where? Apply that to a vehicle you own? What's the history of this piece of paper? What's the history of the vehicle it goes with? Hey for all you know you could be scratching numbers from a stolen car into your perfectly legal car. And then you get a phone call, oh shit, what do you say then, no officer, what really happened is that you see I bought this title and scribbled these here numbers into the frame and body? Damn, still screwed, Right?
Okay heres a little update. She will lose the bike it was stolen. The visible vin had been modifed, they had to remove the tank to look at the vin on the frame to confirm it was not the same. The new vin was an actual vin for a bike identical to hers located in austrailia. So thats how it was registered clean in georgia. Apperently they have caught a talker and he informed them of what they had done and what numbers they were using so they were able to track her bike down. Bad news for her, cause she lost her bike, bad news for the person getting it back because she jsut finished a cross country trip on it and has put 20k mile on it since she got it 3 years ago.
I have a question. What kind of bike was it that they took the tank off to find the VIN . I do not know of any bikes that have the VIN stamped on the backbone. Motor and steering head is were they are usually stamped All frame 1972 and newer must be stamped on the right side of the steering head. Harley used the motor numbers until 1970 when they started stamping the frame. Per 70 frame are not stamped. Also the day the cop showed up at my garage an grabbed the stolen bike I was working on, they did not call first. It was a customers bike and they also check all the bike and impounded my triumph because on number on the title did not match the motor number. took 3 months to get it back all because there was a flaw in the casing and part of the 8 did not pounch and it looked like a 6
It might be drifting off topic, but Harleys have id numbers that are stamped on triple trees, transmissions, cylinder heads,............. that are unique and specific to one bike. Kind of a deterrent to the "part it out" crowd. Larry T
FWIW, we had a guy try to claim one of our cars, an O/T car but just old enough to be a non-title car in NY, was his car that was stolen in 1985. I figured it was a scam to get a good VIN off a car that wasn't in any system anywhere and dismissed it, the guy kept insisting he wanted the VIN to compare to the records. Lo and behold a local cop did show up like two months later to ask about it. Nothing came of it, and I finally decoded the car to show it wasn't the muscle car he said his was but a low end car with a six-cylinder engine. But they did come to look.
I stopped an O/T. vehicle for speeding. Although the car was a few years old, it looked like it had been restored. Upon examination, the car had been repainted. The federal sticker on the door jam had been removed, then reapplied. The vin on the firewall had hammer impressions. The vin on the dash had plastic melted over one of the rivets. I took my buck knife and slid it until the vin plate. The plate popped off. I arrested the driver and impounded the car. Auto Theft Detail found the hidden vin. The car was stolen and the vin's switched.
Don't know how the law works over there but title does not change in Australia when anything is stolen. Also there is no statute of limitations on stealing and prosecuting someone. If ownership was gained via a fraud, well title then changes. Different rules when things go interstate, here it is bringing stolen goods into the state, receiving stolen goods or tainted property (Proceeds of crime).
ok have to add this ..i bought a 80 monte carlo i know its off topic car ,,383 stroker 3500 stall, built trans 400 had to manually shift.......no smog ....went to regis it, aaa said on the newer cars they have to see two sets of numbers, they could only find one, the sticker on the door was removed, said take it to the chp....ouch.....sooooooooo i go to the chp, the officer says give me the keys, i said why? he said i have to take it around back to verify, ouch..........so i told him how to drive the car, you know shift to drive 1 (low), and gas it, the car wont move till it gets to 3500 rpm.............ha i remember watching him drive it past the gate and i said to myself, well ill never see that car again............half hour later i hear it coming out, the officer pulls up with a slight smile, i mite add...throws me the keys and says yup its legit. its you car, have a nice day..............wow
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