Stout 4-Speed. Which is best?

That's why God invented the Vertical Gate shifter!

All-out abuse, Mopar is the final word.
Their iron-case 4-speed, 727 auto and rear ends can't be beat.
A stock 8 3/4 is stronger than a stock Ford 9-inch, while the Dana 60 is the 800 pound gorilla in the room and will not break.

-Brad

 

http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-56.asp

 

With Tremec you get a trans built in Mexico go Richmond.

 

I gotta say, too, that a Pontiac 400 won't be a trans killer. If you get 600HP, it will be at a high enough RPM that the total torque number won't be anything too great. There are not too many 400 inch engines that will hurt a 'modern' 4 speed.

 

Appearently you don't know much about Pontiacs.

 

Lots of BS flying around in this thread!!!!

 

is there anyone that have used 3-speed 833 i came 1970-1978

 

In the same boat. I am building a car for the Hot Rod magazine Drag Week with a 509 cid big block. Was looking at super T 10 . I think we need a trans with stright cut gears (noisy) or very little pitch and a fair amount of tooth count on the input gear.Just guessing.

 

I know enough about Pontiacs. Oh wait, you're right. Now I remember....all other makes at 400 cubes and 600HP will make peak torque somewhere north of 4000RPM. But Pontiac 400's, because of well, you know, will make 600HP at 1200RPM. I forgot the rules don't apply to Pontiacs.

 

I had an aftermarket steel B-O-P scattershield that had two tranny bolt patterns on it from the factory: The GM tranny and the Mopar A-833 tranny. I assume there was a reason for it!

The A-883 is getting a ton of aftermarket support these days as well. You can now get the big "Hemi" input shaft as well as different gearsets and overdrive gears if you really want to tailor your box.

If I was given a blank check to buy a tranny I have no idea what I'd buy though... Probably an expensive 6 speed with a .5 final drive!

 

Hmmm, Someone forgot to tell the one in my Anglia. It ran first behind an Injected Big block for a while then behind an incredibly stout small block. On Slick and good enough for very low 9's on the motor and nothing but drag strip abuse. Oh and it's back behind a 700+ Big Block again.

 

what will kill a transmission is weight of the car and the shock it gets.

If its a light car and a clutch that slips and takes some of the shock away it will survive.

If its a heavy car and a clutch that doesnt slip. You will have scattered internals on the floor.

That being said, the A833 HEMI trans is the stoutest factory transmission built. Period. The 23 spline may look the same but its not, the 18 spline HEMI version is stronger and practically everything is different and not interchangeable with the 23 spline units. Having said this, the 23 spline units are very strong tramissions too...stronger than the Muncies...Im not sure is stronger than the special Rock Crusher Muncies though (but those Muncies are $$$, better get a HEMI 18 spline A833 instead, which is stronger than the rock crusher hands down).

One thing though is that they are heavy and they wont like to shift at hi rpms unless you make the slick shift mod, which basically is just grinding evey other teeth on the synchros. That will make it shift every time, but it will also make it hit hard....which will be harder on it.....and might eventually break.

If you keep the RPMs below 6k it will shift every time and last forever granted it is not a 5000lbs barge with slicks and a hard hitting clutch. That will break anything but the stoutest aftermarket transmission.

 

Also, bare in mind you can also find the OD A833 transmission which look just like a 23 spline A833 but they have aluminum main housings. Steer away from those as they are weak. The aluminum housing is the main weak link there....

Strongest: HEMI 18 spline A833

Followed by the: Ford Top Loader.

Muncies come in third.

My firend had a stout small block street 68 camaro and he ate 3 muncies (they were not M22s thogh). He got tired of it and retrofitted a 23 spline A833 and never had a single problem ever again!!!!

 

I'm thinking the GM has a shorter input shaft than Mopar so it's not exactly a bolt in ?

 

I think you just bob the input shaft and run a Mopar clutch disc. Its not rocket science once you start looking at it!

My buddy adpated it by fabbing a plate in between the Chevy Bellhousing and the A833.

I dont remember if he had to bob the input shaft or not....

 

At the least I think you have to cut an inch or more off,then machine the shaft for a new pilot bearing surface. Not Rocket Science but more than a hand held grinder ,yes?

 

You can bob the input shaft if needed. On a lather or you could crudely do it with a grinder too.

Then you would have to machine the apprpiate size bearing and press it in the chevy crank. I wouldnt turn down the input shaft, instead fab a pilot bushing that will work and press it in the chevy crank. The machine shop will take care of that while they are goin thru your crank.

 

Incorrect. Everything is the same, only the input shaft and gears changed.

For $849 from Brewer's Performance you can get an all new replacement "Hemi" 18 spline input shaft, cluster gear and 1/2/3 gearset that can be used in any A833 transmission to convert to 18 spline.

Just an FYI...

 

I have sort of the same dilema. I have a 493H.P 525 tq. Pontiac 462 motor in a 68 Catalina. I'm starting out with a M21 because it is the quickest easiest way to get the car on the road. But in the future I see a 2:88 Super T10 replacing the Muncie. While it may be not quite as robust a trans as the Mopar, I ran ST10's in a drag car in the 70's with very few issues, it will be just fine in a weekend warrior Poncho.

 

OK TRANS HEADS, HERES DA DEAL, A MUNCIE M22 IS NOT ANY STRONGER THAN ANY MUNCIE THAT HAS A 1" COUNTER SHAFT, OR AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED ANY MUNCIE AT ALL, ALL THEY HAVE OVER ANY MUNCIES IS STRAIGHT CUT GEARS, THAT MAKE LESS HEAT,LESS END LOADING, AND LOTS OF NOISE !!! HENCE THE NICKNAME ROCK CRUSHER, AND BUY THE WAY, THE 833 IS STRONGER BY FAR !! NUFF SAID !!!

 

Strongest to weakest.
A833
Toploader
Super T-10
M-22
T-10

 

Correct. And you dont want to slick-shift any of these boxes unless the car and you are REAL hard-core. You will find a crash box pretty hard to live with on the street, which is where it sounds like you plan to spend 98% of your time.

 

You are wrong.

Few parts interchange. And one of the ones that doesnt is the main case. HEMI boxes use the 308SG8 bearing front and back. The 23 spline units use a smaller bearing. You can use a 23 spine case since they are basically the same casting, but you would need to bore out the front bearing opening to accept the bigger 308SG8 bearing. Hemi transmissions also use a bigger bearing retainer that wont also bolt to the 23 spline case. Youd have to plug the threaded holes for the 23 spline retainer which is smaller, drill and tap new ones for the larger 18 spline bearing retainer bolt pattern.

How I know that? Because I have done it myself.

All in all, you are better off my just buying a nice rebuildeable 18 spline core.....or just go ahead pick up the phone and get a completely rebuilt 18 spluine HEMi unit either from Wayne Brewer or Jamie Passon. They are both good sources. Dont bother with junk 18 spline cores, as they will be just as expensive or even more expensive than buying a complete unit from eithwer of these 2 guys.

Jamie Passon also sells 18 spline units with aluminum housings which are said to be just as rigid as the iron units, only lighter.

He is also coming out with a 5 speed version of the A833 which will bolt in to any stock applicatrion with absolutely no mods needed. JKust a bolt on deal, and just as stout, or I think even stouter than the oiriginal 18 splines....oh and all aluminum as well!!!

 

I just6 went into brewers website and it seems the big block 23 spline main cases also use the 308SG8 front bearing.....seems I converted a small block 23 spline then.

Anyway, bottom line is that it is a lot of work.

Either you rebuild a clean 18 spline core, or you are better off buying a new one off brewers or Jamie.

Stay away from junk 18 spline cores or converting your 23 spline, it will cost more for sure. DAMHIK

The last 18 spline core I had and which I sent for a rebuild to Jamie ended up costing close to 1500 bucks, thats for the rebuild, with my core. It was the numbers matchign transmission to an original 1971 440.6 cuda, so I had to do it that way.

 

Does that include bearings, synchros, gaskets, O rings, missing original bolts, oil seals, brass rings, snap rings, etc? It adds up fast. Oh, and there is all the work involved as well, shipping costs, etc.

 

IN post 12,, I made the statement that my sbc would break the muncie and I cured this by using the hemi trans. I guess I should describe my car.
68 Camaro, 314 cubic inch small block w/40 lb flywheel, hemi 4 speed w/vertical gate hurst shifter (Brad54), Dana 60 rear 6:17 gear, 31 tall 13.5 wide slicks. Ran E/MP 11.5 lbs per cubic inch = 3611 lb car, I weighed 175 totaling 3786 (Jeff K.) on the strarting line,, I would twist the engine to 10k, side step the clutch. Brutal on all parts,, 11.03 @ 123 mph and this was in '70-'73. Not brag,,,but fact.
This is why I say the hemi trans was the "berries". (or the "bomb" for the younger crowd).

 

You saved me the trouble of posting the same request. Probably like those engines that are talked about at the drive in when there is no way to prove you've even got 100. the last 600 hp Poncho I saw was in the GTO of Don Gay when the blower on his match racer deposited the crankshaft on the finish line of Indianapolis Raceway Park in 1965.
Did I ever tell you guys about the 5 hp Briggs and Stratton I built up to well over 50 hp so I could do my customers lawns faster in 1957? You should have been there it was really something.

Frank

 

Domingo you certainly know your 440/Hemi 4-speed specs. I referred to my Charger, Road Runner, & Super Bee Restoration Guide Book, pages 70-79. You are dead on! My younger brother had a 1968 GTX 4-spd bracket racer. I owned a 1970 Road Runner 4-spd car. We had to rent a transmission jack to lift that big type 833 4-speed into place. I'm 6'4 220 pounds and my brother was on the USC arm wrestling team and played corner back for the Trojans at the time, and we couldn't lift it together to change the clutch. So we rented a jack. I was only down visiting him, when he said, " Hey Bro, let's replace the clutch in the GTX tomorrow?" The rest is history.

 

The big in/ big out toploader is stronger than all of the other factory options.

 

Okay I lied!

587 horse - Original Super Stock car - Built in '71 - Still wears the paint (not all the stickers) that was put on in '71