Here Is a Tec article I Found On Synthetic Motor Oils Very Interesting http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-tech-performance/2484100-list-of-flat-tappet-oils.html here is another one http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28365 Summary: If you use a flat-tappet cam run an oil from this list or another oil you're sure has at least 1000 ppm ZDDP. No additives (other than for break-in), no diesel oils and no miracle cures - just the right oil. For break-in run any oil from the list plus a break-in additive, or use one of the specialized break-in oils. The sections below in order are: List of oils that claim > 1,000 PPM ZDDP and/or flat-tappet cam support in alphabetical order List of break-in oil and break-in additives Technical background, references and resources Oil List AMSOIL Synthetic Premium Protection Available via Forum Vendor C66 Racing LLC; PM 'Subdriver' for more information Grades: 10W40 (AMO), 20W50 (ARO), 5W20 (HDD), 20W-50 (TRO) Claim: "It is ideal for high-mileage vehicles, vehicles with flat-tappet cams and high-stress vehicles subject to hot temperatures, heavy hauling, trailer pulling or off-road use." Verification: ~1265 PPM: https://www.amsoil.com/dealer/techse...t Tappet.pdf AMSOIL Z-ROD Synthetic Available via Forum Vendor C66 Racing LLC; PM 'Subdriver' for more information Grades: 10W30, 20W50 Claim: "AMSOIL Z-ROD Synthetic Motor Oil is formulated with high levels of ZDDP to protect flat-tappet cams, lifters, rockers and other areas susceptible to wear. Its high-zinc, high-phosphorus formulation provides the extra wear protection these critical splash-lubricated components require." Verification: None; "meets API SL (1,000 ppm ZDDP) and earlier (> 1,000 ppm ZDDP) specifications" Brad Penn Grades: 0W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40 , 15W-40, 20W-50 Claim: In addition to our unique base oil cut, increased concentration of zinc (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate a.k.a. ZDDP) provides outstanding anti-wear/anti-scuffing protection for engines employing either flat tappet or roller cams. BRAD PENN® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils have been evaluated by a number of premiere camshaft manufacturers with tremendous success. Many are now recommending our Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils to provide outstanding protection for their flat tappet or roller cams. Verification: http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx Castrol Syntec 20W-50 Grades: 20W50 Claim: "Engineered to increase wear protection for classic cars with flat tappet camshafts" Verification: Email from Castrol 12/9/09: Current Syntec 20W-50 (for classic cars) is actually a modern premium quality API SM product that has been Zinc boosted to Zinc levels that are reminiscent of levels from historic API categories such as SG when flat tappet cams with high spring loads were common in the fleet. For reference, note that the API SM category has the most rigorous passenger car engine oil (PCO) test performance requirements in the history of the API PCO categories. The level of Zinc in the new Syntec 20W-50 is a minimum of 1200 ppm, which will provide excellent anti-wear protection for the cam and lifters in a flat-tappet cam engine. Collector's Choice Motor Oil Grades: 20W50 Claim: Read verification sheet below Verification: 2000 PPM claimed: http://www.mossmotors.com/graphics/p...0-815_INST.pdf CompCams Muscle Car & Street Rod Oil Grades: 10W30, 15W50 Claim: optimum amounts of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphorous) provide unmatched anti-wear properties. available in both 10W30 and 15W50 formulas and is perfect for late model or classic engines with flat tappet valve trains. Verification: NONE CompCams Tech Line refused to provide any details on ZDDP levels and the MSDS provides no details. The tech would go so far as to say it has "more than" 1,400 PPM ZDDP. Joe Gibbs Hot Rod Oil Grades: 10W30, 15W50 in both conventional (HR-1/HR-2) and synthetic (HR-3/HR-4). Claim: Higher levels of Zinc (ZDP) than regular passenger car oils. Delivers proper anti-wear protection for older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. Verification: ~1270 PPM ZDDP http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/dat...0DataSheet.doc Mobile 1 15W-50 Grades: 15W50 Claim: "Mobil 1 15W-50 is also recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required for newer generation vehicles." Verification: http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...duct_guide.pdf It still remains unclear to me how Mobile 1 can claim API SM/SN compliance when the oil is exempt by grade and far exceeds the maximum ppm ZDDP allowed. Red Line Synthetic Motor Oil I made the decision to remove Red Line oils from the list as they make no claims regarding flat-tappet cam support on their website and I'm awaiting confirmation from them via email regarding their ZDDP levels. Royal Purple RP Grades: 10W40, 15W40, 20W50 Claim: "For stock or mildly modified flat tappet valve trains (<.525 lift), we recommend our SAE 10W40, 15W40 or 20W50 engine oils." Verification: NONE Royal Purple HPS High Performance Street Motor Oil Grades: 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 10W-40 and 20W-50. Claim: It is fortified with a high level of zinc/phosphorus anti-wear additive... Protects valve trains using roller or flat tappet lifters requiring added protection due to high lift/ high ramp rate camshafts Verification: NONE Royal Purple XPR Grades:0W10, 5W20, 5W30, 10W40, 20W50 Claim: "In applications with flat tappet valve trains using high-lift cams and/or high RPM applications, we strongly recommend upgrading to our XPR line of engine oils as these have an even greater concentration of ZDDP providing excellent protection with the higher spring pressures." Verification:NONE Valvoline VR1 Grades: 20W50, 10W30 Claim: "High zinc/phosphorus provides extreme wear protection, including flat tappet applications." Verification: 1300 - 1400 PPM ZDDP http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/VR-1_Racing_Motor_Oil.pdf NOTE that there are some concerns with VR1 due to inconsistent test results. Valvoline Specialty Racing Oil ("Not Street Legal") Grades: 20W50 Claim: "High zinc/phosphorus provides extreme wear protection, including flat tappet applications." Verification: 1300 - 1400 PPM ZDDP http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Specialty_Synthetic_Racing_Oils.pdf Valvoline Roush Full Synthetic Grades: 5W30, 5W50, 10W30, 10W40 Claim: "Provide longer lasting zinc/phosphorus anti-wear." Verification: NONE Valvoline Racing Synthetic Grades: 20W50, 10W30 Claim: "High zinc/phosphorus for extreme anti-wear, including flat tappets." Verification: NONE Engine Break-In Oils/Additives Brad Penn Break-in Oil "The Brad Penn Penn Grade 1 Break-In oil is designed specifically with a lower level of ZDDP and other select additive components as a Break-In oil. Since break in is a wearing process high levels of an anti-wear additive may be counterproductive. The type of ZDDP used in this oil is also more suitable for break in applications." Taken from the Brad Penn website; the concept of less ZDDP for initial break-in is counter to offerings by other vendors and cam vendor guidance. Evaluate for yourself. CompCams Break-in Oil Joe Gibbs Break-in Oil Royal Purple Break-In Oil GM Engine Oil Suppliment (EOS) Technical Background ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate, "zinc" or "zink") is an anti-wear oil additive that contains roughly equal amounts of zinc (Zn) and phosphorus (P) and is particuarly critical for correct lubrication of flat-tappet camshafts. The amount of ZDDP has decreased over time with the broad adoption of roller-tappet cams and the negative impact ZDDP has on catalytic converters. Standards for engine oil are set by the American Petroleum Institute (API) and the International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC). Prior to 1988 API SF specified a minimum of 1500 PPM P. In 1993 API SG reduced reduced the minimum to 1200 PPM, and it was reduced again to 1000 PPM with the SL specification. A broad wave of flat-tappet camshaft failures started in 2004 following introduction of API SM and ILSAC GF-4 oil specifications which set a maximum of 800 PPM and a minimum of 600 PPM P for grades SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30. Initially blamed on poor cam quality control, it was quickly determined that it was in fact the reduction of ZDDP combined with more agressive cam profiles and****ociated higher spring loads that were the root cause. Testing that showed the new oils would still have acceptable ZDDP for flat-tappet cams was done with very mild cam profiles and very low spring pressures. This is not what is found in even a mild performance engine, but may work - or at least appear to work - in older stock-type engines that don't see hard driving, have mild cams and tired valve springs or just see very few road miles - hence the perspective for some that ZDDP levels are not a genuine issue. Each needs to****ess the risks and costs and determine their best choice. Note that as an additive, ZDDP loses potency over time, losing approximately 1/2 of it's effectivness at approximately 6,000 miles. The latest API SN and ILSAC GF-5 specifications do not change the maximum/minimum ppm ZDDP. API/ILSAC Oil Specifications From these events, specifications and timeline I propose that: Flat-tappet cam failures started with the reduction of ZDDP < 1000 PPM. Based on this, 1000 PPM ZDDP is the minimum required level. Levels of 1200-1400 ppm ZDDP may be required for more extreme cams. What level defines too much ZDDP is unclear, but for street use more than around 1400 PPM is likely not appropriate. Oil change intervals should be no more than 3,000 miles with dino oil, 6,000 with synthetic. Any oil marked API SM/SN, ILSAC GF-4/5 or ILSAC CJ-5 in grades SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE 10W-30 cannot have sufficient ZDDP. The oils listed above claim to contain >= 1000 PPM ZDDP and/or claim to be specifically formulated for flat-tappet cams. Note that the list is specific for product and grades - often a different product or grade by the same manufacturer won't have the same level of ZDDP. Where there is verification, it's linked. I am not making recommendations and I have no axe to grind - if there need to be changes, post the information for review. Specifically not included in the list are: Racing oils that are only available in single-weight. Additionally, generally racing oils aren't a good selection for the street, as they're not designed for extended change intervals. "ZDDP" additives (other than those specifically for engine break-in) as these are not recommended by any oil manufacturer. Oils not readily retail-available. Diesel oil. The International Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) CJ-4 (diesel) specification states a maximum of 1200 ppm phosphorus, and oil*****ysis typically shows significantly less. Also, the additive package is significantly different than gasoline oils which impacts the effective ZDDP levels. Per this post purported to be direct from Shell, they advise that they "believe Shell Rotella T Triple Protection Oil SAE 15W-40 should work well for most of these situations". Given believe, should and most I will continue not to list Rotella or any other diesel oil on this list. Regarding switching from mineral to synthetic There's a lot of feedback that making this switch causes engines to develop leaks. This can be the case, but it's important to understand why. Synthetic oil is more solvent than mineral oil, meaning that it can clean and remove deposits left by mineral oils - and expose worn or damaged oil seals. If your engine currently uses more than about 1 quart every 1,000 miles or is already "leaky", you may experience leaks (or worse leaks) by switching. Note that this solvency is a good thing; this is exactly what keeps an engine far cleaner when running synthetic. Thanks to all the folks that posted oil information across the Forum and on this thread! Oil*****ysis Companies Blackstone Labs Oil*****ysis Labs, Inc. Note that it is CRITICAL that the oil be well-agitated before pouring a sample! Also note that the accuracty of "Virgin Oil*****ysis" has been called into question based on a number of inconsistent results.See this link and****ociated links to evaluate for yourself. Brad Penn also notes disparity in these results. Other References Bob Is The Oil Guy forums - discussion of oil and test results
I use ZDDP additive in all my older motors. There is alot of info on here about this topic. Thanks for bringing it back up.
This is good info. I just rebuilt my motor and have about 3000-5000 miles on it using mineral oil with zinc add. Running a flat tappet cam shaft too. I am currently debating running a synthetic. Not to sure yet. Thinking Amsoil??? 10W 40 or the 10W 30? J
I love flat tappets but honestly the first thing I usually do when building an engine is do a retrofit roller cam. Theyre better in nearly every way over flat tappets and I just dont want to have to worry about it.
I didn't see a link as to where the info was garnered from (website?) Irregardless, Thanks for the post. I will have to read deeply into it to absorb all the info. I have also copied the info to file for later use. Thanks again for posting. moe .
racing oils do NOT have the additive for extended use.(they have ZDDP) possibly only 1,000 miles between oil changes. no... your diesel oil now is low on ZDDP also
Chubbie Your post on Valvoline VR-1 oil is not correct, They produce three types of Racing oil. 1. VR-1 non synthetic 2. VR-1 synthetic Both these oils are for regular street use and oil change intervals. The other VR-1 oil you spoke of is not for street use and racing only that has the low oil change interval. For further information, goggle Valvoline and call the Fluid Technical Hotline. Beat 53 Chevy, I use the VR-1 Non Synthetic 10W-30 Racing oil. 1400 PPM of Zinc and 1300 PPM of Phosforous. It costs less then $5.00 a quart.
COOL!!!!!! who knew? I've been using the ZDDP additive for years now. must be working??? my wifes car, 2001 SSEI bonneville had issues with pushrods. mechanic told me its common if they are not roller rockers this has to be about the ZDDP's sans oil. yet i talk to guys all the time that have never herd of it
Interesting... (again..?). My solid lifter, flat tappet engine has lived to almost 100,000 miles (and counting) of almost daily driving on Castrol GTX, 20/50 and Lucas oil additive. AND...zero oil related failures..! A new, hot rod, Studebaker engine I'm building will get a diet of Mobil I, 15/50 after about 250 or so miles. Mike
They say the main concern is the break in of a new engine. To prevent a cam wipeout you need an oil with plenty of ZDDP protection. Follow the cam manufacturers instructions which may include using their additive for the break in. I've read that after the break in you can use your favorite oil. I choose the continued use of Valvoline VR-1 with a high ZDDP content for added protection.
I honestly think that cam failure is not only related to the oils that we are using. I am starting to think that it might also have something to do with spring pressures in the valve train. Just an idea?
13 yr.old post. Rats info always been sketchy, using gear oil test methods, been beat to death topic , here and elsewhere. Use what you want.
Man, if you're going to respond to every oil thread from the past 25 years, you're going to be typing for a week at least. (Of course with no profile information and a direct link to the Amsoil website, this post could be just SPAM)
Amsoil is on some kind of AI advertising rampage. Bought a couple quarts online a couple months ago, just about never seen the like of all the spam thrown at me ever since. Seems to never let up. I ain't buying any more.
From what I have seen and heard, the biggest reason for all the flat tappet cam failures in the not so distant past is most likely due to horribly bad lifter face grinding (improper crown radius) or a lack of proper lobe taper or both. Improper surface finish and even the chamfers on lifters can be another issue. Even some of the top name lifters have been proven to be junk. Good oil with 1200 ppm ZDDP is certainly important but it's not what's killing all these cams. It's not a hardness issue either. It's bad geometry. Problem is, if you don't check these things. and there is a failure. you have no way to know what really happened and that's when all the speculation and finger pointing starts. Maybe a few could be from a poor spring choice but that's probably a very small percentage. If your going to run a flat tappet these days, better get out the dial indicator check all of it. Hydraulic rollers can have their own issues to. Nothing is fool proof
I've been using Castrol GTX Classic in my flat tappet engine. https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...1CB34448025867E0048D3EA/$File/wepp-bybe6a.pdf
VR-1 20w-50 on a fairly aggressive solid flat tappet. I did remove the inner spring for break-in. All went well, that was 2 years ago. Cam is a Comp Cams custom grind with Re- surfaced Johnson tappets. I have a set of brand comp cams solid flat tappets I just didn’t trust so I never used.
Posting a list of oils and their composition from almost thirteen years ago is a nice history lesson, but isn’t very relevant today. I would bet most of those products don’t exist in the same form they did 13 years ago, if they exist at all.
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