TECH-- Ford Flathead cooling revitilization

I have consolidated all the great advice i got via different pieces, threads and people on the HAMB in addressing my Flathead cooling issues into one tech post. Here it goes...

REVITILIZING THE COOLING SYSTEM ON FORD FLATHEAD:

1) First of all, my 1940 Ford Pickup w/ a 1948 59AB flathead ran good, but ran too hot. After time, temp would always shoot up too high, system would begin to boil, etc. By the way, here's a pic of the truck (and dog who likes to get in pictures...



2) Initially I tried to service what i had without replacing anything....

- flushed out the system and then ran it up to temp a couple times running a vinegar mixture for a bit to help flush out years of build-up.

- flushed and filled system with distilled water.

- also burped the system by running it and then cracking the water temp guage sensors on top the heads, to ensure no pockets of water were trapped.

STILL RAN HOT

3) Then i pulled the distributor and found the timing was too retarded. Bench dialed the initial to 4 degrees and backed out the brake advance adjustor all the way. After back on the truck running, I dialed in the advance by run testing it, and turning in the adjuster until it wouldnt ping on full throttle.

RAN MUCH BETTER, BUT STILL GOT TOO WARM ON HILLS AND IN TRAFFIC.

(by the way, i was validating real temps by inserting a real, trusted thermometer in the radiator)

4) So.... now I went through a full service of the cooling system:
- First of all I noticed when taking apart the system that it didnt have any thermostats. Many people believe that removing tstats help cooling, but i dont believe that. In this case, a properly working tstat helps cooling, as it backs up water flow enough to ensure that water fills the p***ages and thus grabs more heat from the motor.



- I removed the radiator and took it to the shop and had new cores build and put in. Instead of the stock 4 p***es, i had him do 5 p*** cores. Also had them keep the crank hole, bracket, etc.. for who knows why... Here i tried to take a pic showing the 5 rows:



- Next I installed Speedway Motors water pumps. These have improved impeller design, as well as improved bearings. On stockers, you couldnt adjust the belts tight. With the new bearings, you can... and it results in better pump performance. Here's a Speedway pump:



- Next i installed new 160 degree thermostats. Before installing, first I tested functionality using the stove w/ water and the trusted thermometer (I strongly recommend this



- Then I drilled two small holes on each side, to help in burping the system, improving perfomance.



- Then i installed the tstats, and hoses that i flushed out.

- Filled the system with distilled water (normal water leaves behind minerals to build up in system when water evaporates) and a bottle of Water Wetter (supposed to improve efficiency of water, and has a lubricant in it.) I dont use coolant, as i dont have freezing risk and water is more efficient at cooling.

- Burped the system that same way described above.

- By the way-- before all this, I pulled the water temp sensors w/ guage and tested with heat and trusted tstat. Confirmed that on my guage, mid line = 160 degrees and hot line = 200 degrees

- Done, and it works *****EN. Car likes to stay right around 160-170 at all times. Runs cool in bumper to bumper, climbing, etc.

Hope this helps some. Again thanks to different HAMBers for giving me these different pieces of advise that i consolidated here.

-scott noteboom

 

Pretty much sums up what i went through with my flattie in the 31. Only difrference is I run a 20% mix of antifreeze along with the water wetter since I have an aluminum radiator.
Butch

 

been down the same road with my 53 f250,i am going to swap out my water pumps for speed way pumps -THANKS!

 

Great work! That’s a really nice looking pickup! Beautiful

I am going to bring this up just for discussion
Yes, it’s been talked about before
Thermostats are designed to hold the engine at operating temperature. Many have brought up the fact that these actually curb the volume of water through the system allowing the coolant to reach areas normally missed or slow it to a point that allows the radiator/fan to cool it

I have been around enough flatheads now to know that every flathead cooling system is different and due to the many issues for overheating..no one fix will make them all react the same way

Think about this example
If you take a hose nozzle and open it all the way, you will get the maximum volume of water. But if you adjust the nozzle down what happens? You see the pressure increase and the volume decrease.
That is exactly what a thermostat is doing. Decreasing the volume.

The original style pump impeller design is no more than a glorified paddle wheel creating very poor pressure and limited volume. At the higher speeds we run on today’s roads, the original style impeller simply does not supply enough volume or pressure. I sometimes wonder if they cavitate some.

I didn’t realize Speedways pumps have a redesigned impeller.
I do know Skips pumps have an impeller he designed himself. These increase both the pressure and volume by 50-70%.

My opinion.. If you have exhausted all the other possibilities of over overheating and still have issues. Set your coolant system up with a redesigned impeller and a pressurized system.
I have yet to hear someone that wasn't happy and did not have good results with this.
This can't fix leaking head gaskets, cracked blocks, plugged radiators, plugged engine coolant p***ages or timing issues.

After this change, if the engine does not reach operating temperatures of 170-180 degrees. Then the thermostat may be necessary. These suggestions are the final step in having a cool engine that can run 65-70 in 90 degree weather all day long.

 

Hey Scott well done...that a nice pickup too !!

I do exactly the same thing. I run distilled water, a corrosion inhibitor WITHOUT glycol and thats it - I dont have freezing issues where I live either.. Its a blown flathead and it NEVER gets hot, hardly ever use the elec fan.

I also left the hot tanked clean block in mol***es - after a month of that it come out of the soupe and once rinsed looked like it has just been cast - the water jackets were SILVER !! Now thats clean and I firmly belive thats why re runs so cool !!

Good to hear it all worked out champ!!

Rat

 

So, what was the one thing you did that cured the problem?

I bet it was cleaning out the system, including the new radiator. And adding the thermostats couldn't hurt either.

In the flathead I put together it usually runs about 170 in normal operation, but will sometimes creep up to 205 when I'm scooping the loop at the July 4th Goodguys in Des Moines. Block was sandblasted clean in and out, uses Walker radiator, stock waterpumps, stock stats w/no extra holes, and expertly timed '42 distributor. Filled with half water, half coolant, and a bottle of pump lube. Just a nice clean flathead that's well adjusted. Emphasis on the CLEAN.

 

The engines were designed with thermostats in there...I wonder why?

Yunick had some published thoughts on thermostats or restrictors in place of stats and their roles. He did a LOT of thinking and testing of cooling issues, too, including dyno flogs of engines with cutway blocks and plexi windows into the water jackets.
He said approximately that with powerful pumps and restricted outlets like thermostats on the engine, pressure was developed within the block above the general ambient pressure of the system. This pressure was enough to help suppress localized pockets of overheating/boiling and the pockets formed by cavitation of the flow! He said that all engines contained bad spots within their jackets where there was localized boiling and bubbling dumping excess heat and creating steam pockets where cooling was prevented even in an engine with decent overall temp. The only way to deal with these was that backpressure!

 

I run stock 32 cooling system no press 7/16 restrictors . timing and cooling system within spec. can run with no fan. to cool in winter . never had a heating problem. this tells me I need thermostats to regulate heat.

 

Here are my thoughts on the idea of thermostats being restrictive:

- Yes, i believe that in the flathead thermostats (and in many cars) restrict flow. I believe that was part of the design.

- Without restriction, yes--- more water will flow through the system. However, i believe the volume of the p***age ways throughout the motor have greater surface than the increased volume of water can cover. For more dramatic example, imagine a big pipe that is hot, with a fast moving river flowing in the bottom 1/4 of it. Thus, there is no water coverage in the top 3/4 of the pipe to remove heat.

- Thus, the thermostat becomes a dam of sorts, intended to back up water. When completely closed, it allows the motor to warm up nicely. But, when open it still dams off total volume of flow and increases pressure, thus surface area covered, on the p***ages. I believe this would likely result in a better means of water capturing heat throughout the p***ages.

That said, i believe this design was intended to deal with stock situations. Once heat volume becomes too great, I believe a flow restriction can begin. Thus, i'd imagine there could be a use out there for higher flow thermostats (which i havent seen or used before.)

DISCLAIMER: I'm an uneducated ****. Thus, my theories are based on what's deemed common sense in my mind-- not what was properly taught in school. I've gotten by pretty well with that in life though :-D

-scott noteboom

 

Great post, thanks. I'm trying to make a driver out of my 50 and this will go a long way to keeping it running in the desert this summer.

 

In the end, i believe that it was the new radiator cores that made the major impact and fixed the problem. Cleaning out the system with vinegar just wasnt enough to fix the issue, thus the new cores.

I believe that the radiator is an original, and this truck sat for many years... during those years, water evaporates and leaves minerals, those and rust contamination turns to major blockage inside. While doing everything was nice, in this case i think it was the radiator that did it...

-scott noteboom

 

Great thread, I hope that I can soon add my 2 cents with a report on a flatmotor with the 409 water-pump set-up.

Hey Rat, I just gotta ask, how much mol***es does it take to dip a flathead?

 

Nice tech article....I haven't dealt with Hot temps yet (just got the car a month ago), But I did put new pumps on it (Speedway), Have the radiator flushed and repaired, and flushed the block as well. I put Cad. plated washers in the hoses ( to restrict the flow somewhat) because the thermostats were junk. When it gets warmer outside, I'll drive it and see how she acts. Does your stock water temp gauge reflect actual temp.? Mine don't seem to and I'm thinking about adding a gauge to the head and an aux. to the dash.
Thanks...Good tech tip.......

S****s

 

Reminds me something i forgot to add that is important:

1) I replaced the two water pump bolts and washers that recide inside the water flow area with stainless steel. I believe this is smart to do-- just look at the normal bolts that came off after years of use (I was lucky to get mine off without too much work-- as they were very badly coroded.)

-scott noteboom

 

as stated..
this is meant as discussion for fun.

The blocked flow caused by thermostats will increase pressure within the sytem. If the volume is adequate, I believe the increased pressure could in fact help cool the system. I would imagine that is one reason why we see the modern cars with a pressurized system. (other than increasing the boiling point)
Any pressure within an open cooling system will
cause the coolant to come out depending on the speed of the pumps.
Would pressurizing the system with a cap do the same thing as the volume starving thermostats??
I really dont believe the stock impellers are in fact capable of providing enough volume to cool a flathead at high speeds ( Now I said high). The thermostats compound the issue.
How can an uncapped system really pressurize regardless. Maybe localized pockets will pressurize but not the overall system.

I can imagine everyone here with an uncapped system will admit to loosing coolant at high speed.
They way I see it...
Give me as much volume as I can get my hands on.
Pressurize (capped) the system to allow for the pressure to get to hard to reach areas and prevent loss.

 

all sensible points, Petejoe. And, i gotcha on the dicussion for fun part-- besides you are one of the guys who helped me with advise in the first place (I am a flathead newbie, by the way) so i appreciate and respect what you gotta say.

-scott noteboom

 

Stainless is the way to go for those waterpump bolts. Great tech Scott (for an uneducated ****)

 

Is the pickup using a pressurized system now? Was it pressurized before?

I don't think pressurizing will remove the air pockets, but the thermostats will. And pressurizing will allow you a few more degrees before you boil over.

 

nice article covers nearly evrything,as with all flathead cooling issues,there is always a solution and as i found out with mine i do not,and have not overheated at all,just one thing to butch i have an aluminum radiator with my flathead,and i run distilled water and 2 bottles of water wetter,the water wetter has an anti corrosive which inhibits rust,you really dont need anti freeze,i spoke to the tech guys at redline they said it protects against rust better than any antifreeze,i have had no problems.

 

Yes, 4lb cap now. Wasnt pressurized before.

-scott noteboom

 

Nice post Bruce, I think that sums this up pretty well.

Scott, remember that with the block full at the beginning, and the pump pumping in the bottom and out the top, there should be no emptying of the block as in your example, the block should remain full unless the there is a coolant leak which brings the total volume of the system down. Bruce's explanation of cavitation and/or localized boiling make the most sense. I have even seen cavitation so bad in some parts that it eroded the metal away, slow down the flow and you reduce the cavitaion and get better heat transfer to the water.

 

2nd that! Love that truck!

 

lol... duh. yes, actually the block is always full due to the water level set. with the pumps being below, the jackets would always be full up to the level you fill the radiator. Forgot about that thing called gravity, etc...

i stand corrected. thanks.

-scott noteboom

 

Localized steam generation can overcome gravity...and, I think related to cavitation, sudden movement of fluid can leave a void too, WITHOUT actual air! I see this filling hypodermics...wife is a diabetic. Get a hypodermic properly filled, get rid of all bubbles, invert system so needle is entirely covered with fluid...yank back the plunger too fast and you briefly create a pocket of nothing. I think cavitation is kinda a high velocity/high turbulece version of this. SO...a full water jacket can contain areas where hot metal is essentially bare due to cavitation or intense local steam generation...

 

Good topic,
I bought a French Block from Red's Headers and I was going to put on these "Baron Heads - High Flow" They hold almost a gallon of water each. What do you think of using the Speedway water pumps AND the Baron heads? Is this just overkill?

http://www.baronracingequipment.com/productsBaronHeads-HighFlow.htm

 

Bruce, I think this is still air. Remember that even if there are no air bubbles there is still air dissolved in the fluid. When you draw back (lower the pressure in the system) you change the gas law dynamics such that the gas takes up more volume. I will try deg***ing some water and try this again (although it might still be micro bubbles that you can't see).

Another thought on boiling though, I think rough surfaces and mineral deposits in the jacket act like boiling stones and allow a nucleation point for rapid boiling as the water temp reaches boiling. "Pressurizing" the system will raise the boiling point, reducing "g***es" in the system and allowing better heat transfer.

 

I saw Petejoe's comment about losing coolant at high speed. Years ago I had this problem with my 39. Running a stock open radiator with antifreeze. What I found is that ethylene-glycol will foam in an open system. I put a piece of gl*** tube in the upper radiator hose and sure enough, could see bubbles going through. The faster I ran it, the more foam. This would then go out the overflow tube and then coolant level would go down and engine would overheat. Switched to water with corrosion inhibitor-----No more problems. So if you are running an open system, be aware of what is happening. Sure made my driving a lot happier.

 

I would like to chime in on this, I believe that getting the block cleaned out properly is a big part of solving hot spots and non cooling. We cleaned a block as good as we could, then we cut it apart and checked the jackets. What we found was enough to knock your socks off. The jackets still had this scale that we could remove using a needle gun to get to good metal. That is what I think is causing hot spots, the water can't get to the metal to cool it like it should. It is like a blanket insulating the water. Any of these old blocks must be cleaned to the utmost and then cleaned again. That with new design pumps and a new radiator as well as washers/thermostats, and a good fan should do the deed.--TV

 

Hmmm....there's a guy named Bernoulli who will disagree with your statement & so will I. When you reduce the cross-section of the exit on the hose by adjusting the nozzle down, you increase the VELOCITY, not pressure. The pressure actually decreases at the exit point - when you put your hand in front of it, you're not feeling pressure, but velocity. The pressure on the other side of the restriction, however, goes up because flow goes down.

Yes, this one was written by a guy named Boyle. It is air, but it's also boiling. Like when you pop the top on a soda bottle & all the bubbles come out of suspension. It's the reduction of pressure that allows the trapped gas to escape. In the soda example, it's CO2, but in the boiling example, it is air, but the water is boiling.



I'm a fan of restrictions in the heads be they T-stats or washers (I personally prefer T-stats), but any restriction helps reduce localized boiling by increasing the pressure within the block.

 

I stand corrected Ernie. After reading up on this I have learned that velocity and pressure are not the same. I never realized this.
Still the point I was trying to make still is that the volume decreases when the flow area is decreased by thermostats.
That leads me to another question...
Doesnt improving the impeller design do the same thing?? increase velocity without decreasing the volume????