tech request: lead work

i searched around, but didnt find what i was looking for. so maybe someone would like to contribute a tech article on this. maybe some tips, tricks, tools, heating, and what nots. i know, bondo is cheaper, easier, but it aint what i want to do. so whatcha guys got? thanks

trey

 

ummmmm why do you want lead ???? especially since you havent done it before ????...is it because its '' traditional ?''.... it is MUCH harder to work with very toxic and has no flexing qualities unlike plastic body filler ... not really trying to be a dick but there is a reason most body guys dont use it anymore .....as soon as plastic filler came out that stuff was obsolete....

 

I would love to be able work lead, but like lownslow said it is very toxic and outdated. And has a habit of having bubbles pop up under the paint after a while if not done correctly. I think Eastwood sells supplies if not mistaken. Good luck, have lotsa good ventilation. Oh yeah, don't eat it.

 

yeah when a car is in bare metal it looks cool. but if its getting painted better stick with body filler ....but still wear a mask when using that shit too....none of this shit is good for ya ...some is just worse that others.haha...

 

he's right, theres a reason theres not many guys left who do leadwork. The lead killed em'. The cons really outweigh the pros, it's hard to work with, it's toxic as hell, and I'm pretty sure it causes adhesion problems with the paints of today. From what I've heard peopel talk about it, most guys always have to skim it with bondo anyway to get it shaped perfect, so what would be the point?

it looks like I'm too damn slow....

 

well yeah, one reason id like to try it, is because its traditional. maybe not something id like to do on every car id ever build, but id like to give it a try. hell, a lot of us are running things that are traditional, but not quite practical. just wanted to give it a shot, and see what its like. maybe instead i should invest my money in a mustangII front end?

maybe i should go post this on the hokey ass message board? oh wait.

trey

 

Howdy Trey,

If your gonna lead, lead on a high crown panel, door edge or a factory seam where lead was used. A carburizing flame is used when leading (body soldering). If you don't have a oxy torch, go buy an over size crack torch ( propane torch ). Lead is strong and flexible and most important, higher than a horses ass when it come to price. Try doing an small area first, since the carburizing flame will melt the lead. If working on a window pillar start at the bottom and work up vertical since heat rises.

Few thing you'll need:

Clean surface with a good tooth in the metal (24 grit)

You could use acid and the lead stick, to tin, I find that tinning paste or tinning butter is more cost effective, easier to use and better results.

Lead Alloy 30% tin 70% lead bar

Hard wood paddles to smooth the lead after applied
You may use oil, bee's wax ( toliet wax ring is cheaper) or sheep fat (mutton tallow) to protect the paddles from burning.

Spray bottle with a 1 part baking soda : 4 part water to neutralize the acid found in tinning compound.

Vixen file (body file) to contour to desired shape. Don't use an air sander. (deadly, if you plan on breathing!!!)

A well vent work area, latex gloves

Supplier's that carry the goodies: Eastwood, TM Technologies, Johnson Mfg.


Keep the lead off of your shoes


P P

 

cool then.....have at it junior......

 

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maybe i should go post this on the hokey ass message board? oh wait.

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maybe you should give people shit when they offer constructive responses to your questions...

lead sucks. they're just trying to teach you that the EASY WAY.

 

thanks poop, really appreciate it.

autocol: do you understand the word constructive?

trey

 

of course i do... and if you're aware of the reasons that it's not used much any more, but want to do it anyway, then knock yourself out, you'll have no argument from me. i just don't see the reason to take a sarcastic tone with people who were just trying to help.

carry on...

 

Actually, there ARE reasons you can use lead today. I still use it in limited circumstances. You guys have been hearing bad things about lead from people who have tried it, and failed at using it, so they try to trash talk it.
Yes, regular body plastic is a superior product, in most cases. I use it 99% of the time. But there are times when lead is a better way, sometimes, the ONLY way!
The factory used it up til the 70's to finish off critical seams, because it does take abuse. They also used it in places like the sail panels of cars, where the quarter panel meets the roof. The joint was large, deep, and not welded solid. So lead is the best fix for this. It can be put on thick, and will not seep moisture though the unfinished welds. I still use lead to finish factory quarter seams. Even if you use a 'strong' waterproof filler, instead of lead, it is too thick for my liking, and even though the filler itself is waterproof, water can still corrupt the bond between the filler and the metal, and push out the filler, just like regular plastic. It just takes a bit longer.
Lead is also a better choice for edges (like a door edge)that get some abuse, it WILL stick better than bondo, and not crack off. You can use it to attach 'paddles' to sheet metal, so you can grab them and pull, or push them with porta powers, or come alongs, for collision damage. It also works better on things like peaking hoods, where the heat and vibration, from slamming them will crack plastic easier.
It is not a bad skill to learn, and master. Once you know it, you will find ways where it is a better choice than other things.
If you do it right, and clean and neutralize the flux, you will NOT have adhesion problems, or bubbling up of paint or filler.
Learned this almost 30 years ago.......

 

Chopolds has it right on, lead still has its uses.

I have also found it to be particularly useful to finish off windshield, trunk and similar channels that have either been rust repaired or when the top is chopped.

Look at any old car and I'll bet the factory lead work is still solid. So much for BS about not being able to take flexing abuse. My 53 was customized 30 years ago with lead and there isnt a single crack.

If you take precautions as mentioned and dont do it daily for a living you will live to a ripe old age unless the booze or butts get to you first.

 

If you MUST lead, Custom Rodder did an article that seemed pretty informative. Good pics and step by step type of deal. Unfortunately, I don't remember which one. Must have been at least a couple years ago.

And I know what it's like to want to try and do something and everybody puts on their fatherly voice and try and tell you not to do something. Usually makes me want to try it more.

 

yeah,what was that about respritory equipment??

 

looks like the lead,NOR the butts has gotten to him!
~Creepy

 

Respiratory protection is important when you are sanding the lead....most people 'in the know' do not sand it. You finish it with a vixen file, so it shaves off in big pieces, not as a dust. Bill would probably suffer more from the flux fumes, as (much) lead won't be in the air by just melting. Maybe the cigar smoke cancels out the flux???

 

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well yeah, one reason id like to try it, is because its traditional.
trey

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You've gotta be kidding me.

Forget that lead bull shit and get on with life... doing lead work is like those people that reinact civil war battles... a waste of time.

Sam.

 

Can you use one of those bamboo rice spoons? I think they would work nice, they are smooth and flat and round. they should hold up to the heat, cause you cook with them?
FS

 

Trey - it will also be helpful to find someone who knows how to do it and watch them before you go at it. I read all the articles that I could before I tried it and while they helped EXPLAIN the technique, it was a hell of a lot easier to "get" the rhythm of it after watching someone do it.

If you can't find someone who does, look for some videos about it. I know Eastwood has one because they sent me a copy when I bought my "Snoopy does lead work" starter kit. You MIGHT also be able to find something through Covell or Fournier or one of those guys. For what it's worth, I don't really use the stuff...I stick with plastic (but I also don't have the experience under my belt that someone like Chopolds does).

Good luck!
Curt

 

Chop, good info.

Grim, I gotta see that car in person.....

 

it true- lead is a lot less forgiving then plastic fillers about being clean. and that is one of the keys- you gotta keep everything clean -like pretend you're Ryan in his garage clean. FWIW- this is good advice for the plastics too.
for starting out- get the eastwook kit/ video- pretty much has everything you need.
it's not a hard skill to learn, but it'll take time to get good....like welding or hammer and dolly work.
and use you're brain about respitarors an vetalation.

 

That's different Grimlock.

Any moron can see that your letters are painted on and not stick on letters... but lead body filler?

And what is the "In your eye's" comment supposed to mean?
I fully understand old world techniques and craftmanship... I understand that some things are better to do the old way... but body filler? The new body fillers are far superior to the old ones... they outlast, outperform, are cheaper, safer and easier than lead... so it just seems folish to me to use lead.

When BONDO was first introduced, lead may have still been a better body filler... but I had one old body man tell me that it was because guys were stacking the plastic filler on one, maybe two inches thick.
So, you have these old guys that remember the transition period... and it's these guys that some of the young people are looking up to, I guess.

Besides, I hear that using lead will stunt our growth.
Sam.

 

I hear ya.

I get pretty much that same flack whenever I talk to people around here about what I'm doing.

So, sorry for the rant Trey.

I took a body class about 15 years ago and learned the art of slinging mud then... incidentally, the instructor tought leadding... the only guy willing to listen was a gentleman with a '34 Ford.

Sam.

 

no biggie, ive got thick skin.

thanks for the replies guys. im going to go buy a few books and read up, and then ask around to see if i can find someone local to watch do some of it. and i wont breathe too much in, and what i do breathe, ill chase down with a cigarette. i didnt figure id stir up that much of a problem with it. ah well. thanks again

trey

 

OK here it is, I worked with an old-timer body man, He did lead loading as it was called. His advice was to use it on both sides of a patch panel, for a more permanent rust repair and to smooth a join like when the factory would spot weld the roof to the quarter panel.

Every thing has to be VERY clean (shinny bare metal), he would use a soldering flux, heat the area and tint it (apply sold stick of solder to the hot panel) reheat the area and smooth with a hard wood bat, dipped into bees wax.

He also said it was over kill on most cars but some high dollar restorations (Astonmarton’s and such) wanted it and willing to pay big bucks for it.

Killed a lot though, most would roll up a smoke waiting for the lead to cool and transfer the lead to there mouth – JUST TOUCHING lead will leave trace amounts on your skin-

He said “didn’t take that long for the poor bastard’s to go all shaky, lose bowl control , but did take’m awhile to die.”

HEY- what’s Trad about shaken like a dog shiting razor blades, shitin your pants and a long drawn out death? Some things are better left in the past.

He also told me about how they used asbestos – damp in a clay type stuff to confine heat to stop warping- that probably killed a few 20 years later.

not a rant - the truth

 

Jumping in a little late, but here's my two cents (not adjusted for inflation or exchange rates):

I've used it - took a while to get the hang of it, but was definitely a good way to tackle certain things. I'll use it again where it seems appropriate. Vertical is definitely more challenging, but do-able for the novice with a little practice (more to file off!).

You've gotten good advice from the folks that bothered to answer your question.

Save your filings & left-over stubs - you can make a simple mold out of something like angle iron & melt your leftovers, pour into the angle iron, let cool & get usable sticks out - if you're a cheap bastard like me (or get stuck partway through a job & realize you don't have anymore new sticks! )

Good luck!

 

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HEY- what’s Trad about shaken like a dog shiting razor blades, shitin your pants and a long drawn out death?


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about the same thing that's trad about building a super fast super cool car and then driving it like an idiot and getting yourself killed.nothing.just have fun and take precautions and do things right.that's why this guy is asking these questions,to be able to do it right,not to have some guy bother him cuz he's too chicken to do it himself.if he wants bondo,let him use bondo.if he wants steel,let him use steel.if he wants lead,let him use lead as long as he does it the right way.you're of no help by telling him to leave it in the past.sure it might look like shit and sure it might be dangerous,but it's still his decision and not yours to belittle.we might be dealing with the next barris or duane steck.and in either case,there's nothing wrong with wanting to learn an old trade.
~Creepy