TECH: The extensive yet incomplete Ford V8 Swapper's Guide!

Thanks, Henry...I've been collecting these photos and stuff for a while...and I've messed with Fords on and off since the early 80s. Being from Dearborn, it's almost a given that you're gonna have your share of experience with the Blue Oval Cult!! Ha ha!

 

Backing up a moment to the talk about C4 bellhousings, it occurs to me that it may seem as if small block C4 bells are all common parts, when in fact there are several variations. In addition to the previously mentioned cable shift and non cable shift bellhousings, and the case fill vs pan fill housings...there are also a few application-specific C4 small block bellhousings worth noting.

First, of course, would be the early 5-bolt hosuing found behind early 289s and the 260 and 221 engines. Falcon and Mustang guys are all too familiar with these...and if you intend to run one of the early 60s small blocks in your Ford with a C4 tranny, you'll need the early bellhousing.

Another popular variant is the Mustang II V8 bellhousing for the C4. Space was at a premium in the Mustang II engine bay and trans tunnel, so Ford gave the 1975-78 Mustang II a smaller flywheel and bellhousing. You will also need a Mustang II automatic starter if you run this combo...but you'll have to fight the Mustang II and V8 Pinto guys for the parts involved! Ha ha! They have long sought these parts out. But, they're the ones to use behind a 'modern' 289, 302, 351W or 351C engine if you plan to run a C4 and bellhousing space is really tight!!

You will no doubt encounter other small block C4 bellhousings, but I've tried to mention some of the more unusual or significant ones to arm you with a little additional info for your search!

 

ill handle the tech for the sbc..... every thing interchanges... man that was hard.... stupid fords now i know why i dont like em haha

 

Of course, in the wake of the vastly popular 5.0 Mustang explosion, T5 transmissions have become hugely popular behind small block Fords! The good news is that there are plenty to go around, as there were countless Fox chassis V8 cars equipped with the T5.

A weaker cousin to the T5 was known as the SROD (single rail overdrive) four speed transmission used most commonly in the 1975-78 Mustang II with I4, V6 and V8 engines, and also in 1979-82 or 83 Mustangs with the 5.0 engine, before the T5 replaced it.

Both the T5 and the SROD trans are similar in that the shift linkage is internal and the shifter sticks up out of the center of the trans at the rear of the tailshaft housing. The SROD is super light and can be had for close to nothing (Anyone want one? Let me know!), but it won't stand up to much abuse. Still...for a light car with a stock or mild motor in the hands of a non-abusive driver, the SROD makes for an attractively light and affordable option to those who want a manual trans in their ride. These flyweight transmissions are litterally a dime a dozen...but fourth gear is an overdrive and they will last under normal driving conditions.

The T5 is a better choice for performance engines and 351W and 351C engines in most cases, and their widespread availability makes them a smart and easy choice.

 

The 351C oil pan interchanges with the 351M/400 just fine.

The small block pattern on those unique 351M/400s was put there out of neccesity. I can't remeber the exact date but in that time period Ford MoCo suffered a plant fire which cause there to be a shortage of C6 transmissions. The small pattern was put on those engines to enable them to be bolted up to the more available FMX trannies.

 

Here's one more small block transmission option I thought I ought to mention. Although it's a little newer than what I was mainly concentrating on here, I feel it's a good one to keep in mind for some applications where a super cheap and widely available 5 speed is desired and space isn't a big concern.

Found in 1987-95ish F150 2wd pickups, this unit has the bellhousing cast into the transmission and uses a hydraulic clutch from the factory. It's a bit big and cumbersome to fit into most cars...but if you're building an old 60s shop truck with a small block or Cleveland and want a good 5 speed to throw behind it, it may be an option you'd like to consider!

I owned a 1993 F150 with this trans, and the ratios are nicely spaced. Makes an excellent trans for a hard workin' truck for sure!

 

My ford summary.....get an FE427....or a cammer....or a boss 302...possibly a 289/271hp...maybe a boss 429....skip the rest or better yet, get a small block chevy. And I grew up in my dads mercury dealer through the sixties so I do love the ford line of stuff.....(just not much of it though.)

 

Ow Hatch that kinda burns.

 

Yea, it's kinda harsh but it's tell it like it is time. It's kinda obvious that I'm a dyed in the wool Chevy man but there is a bone I'll throw out to the Ford crowd (this applies to Ford engines AFTER the flathead). I admire anyone who makes a Ford run as good as a Chevy. The reason is when that happens I KNOW that he has spent TWICE as much money and TWICE as much time as the Chevy guy to get the same results. So, if your into being frustrated and wasting time and don't mind not having any money because ford parts are about twice the Chevy counterparts, go for it. If you fall short I'll keep looking in my rear view mirror to make sure your still running and don't need a tow home.
DUCK...............INCOMING

Frank

 

its funny,
coz here the costs of building fords and chevs about equal out, as ford V8 s (windsors and clevelands)were an australian production motor , while SBCs only came in a few cars here, so rebuild parts for fords are local stuff, and SBCs are imported..
no real point to mentioning this, just interesting.

 

GREAT POST GREG!!!

Although I haven't messed around with any FoMoCo products for some years,a couple observations I have made:

Doing a 71 302 w/C-4 into a Pinto(original had V-6) a lot of people say to use the Mustang II front mounts.In reality I had to use 2 LEFT side MII mounts.The rear MII trans mount worked fine with about a 3/4" spacer as I recall. That and taking a BMFH to the firewall.

As to FMX transmissions:I've found most of them to be very fragile in the main case area.One of the effects I observed was when first started and on high idle,if the shift lever wasn't positively engaged in Park,it would drop into reverse and two things would happen:

If unattended it would back across the street right into the door of a brand new 69 442.It would also crack the main bearing web in the case causing the car to have no reverse and only one forward speed.

The former happened to my first wife and the latter to me(twice).

 

Excellent thread. If you don't mind I'll put a link to it on our NSRA tech forum.

 

You still haven't mentioned a lot of the interchangeability issues between engines considered to be the same family, such as 221-302s using 7/16" head bolts and 351Ws using 1/2" head bolts. Or that intake manifolds don't swap from a 351W to anything else. The timing cover issues and front accessory / bracket discussion will double the size of this thread - even if you don't bring up serpentine belts. What about flywheels/flexplates, and their imbalance by year and fitment to specific bellhousings? What about years where one engine has multiple firing orders? And you haven't even touched on the Y-blocks.

I don't mind Fords, they're easy to keep running if you've already got one together. But I wouldn't even attempt to "piece" one together from junk yard parts. It will never work unless you have ONE, COMPLETE donor to work from. Seems that EVERYTHING changed, EVERY year, from 1960-1985. There is a reason that the SBC is infinitely more popular - it makes great power and bolts together, guaranteed to work every time. If you've ever ordered a $300 aftermarket flywheel for your car and realized you now have to go to the junkyard to locate some unobtainable 40yr old "small" bellhousing for a '72-78 C4 with the dipstick in the case, then you understand the frustration of dealing with Ford products.

This, coming from a guy with a '66 289 in his '57 Plymouth. For what it's worth, I used an '80s E-150 (van) 302 pan in my swap, it's different than the ones you mentioned above. Required a different oil pump too.

 

Ha Ha...well, sure, Hatch...if we all had your money!!!!

 

Oh yeah, Ray...I remember those Ford's jumping out of park! For a while there in the mid 70s, many Ford products even came with a big warning sticker right on the dash advising you not to leave the car running in Park, as it may tend to pop into reverse! Seems it wasn't a problem limited to FMX-equipped products, though. My dad's old 72 van did it once with a C4. May have had something to do with their shift linkage???

As far as small block Pintos go, there's been a few routes that people have gone. I helped a buddy build one years ago and he discovered that using two Granada mounts worked for him. I think he used two from one side or the other...but I do recall that he said they were common (at the time) Granada V8 mounts. A Mustang II C4 bellhousing will clear the firewall and allow the use of a case-fill C4 in the tight confines of the Pinto trans tunnel area without the use of a hammer, but he still gave it a little 'massage' to make a little more breathing room around the tranny!

 

I wanted to avoid getting into the specific aspects of building and tuning Ford engines, as well as the head swapping stuff (such as the 351W head onto 302 block, or Cleveland head onto 302 block, for example) because that would open up the flood gates for an endless array of engine building specifics and info related to several different Ford engine families. What I am trying to do here is to provide some basic info with pictures where I can to help a person put a complete motor into his or her project vehicle by showing some of what's readily available, and helping to take some of the confusion out of the whole process.

I left out Flatheads and Y-blocks as well as the newer 'Modular' V8s and the 'exotic' stuff such as Boss 429s, Cammers, etc in this post because I wanted to concentrate on what I consider to be the 'commonly available' carbureted Ford V8s likely to find their way into the hands of ordinary backyard builders!

As I said in my opening post...you could fill VOLUMES of encyclopedias with information related to all aspects of Ford parts swapping, so I wanted to try and reign it in a little tom keep it semi-manageable!

 

No problem with me if Ryan doesn't mind. It's out there for anyone to use once it's on the net in my eyes...I just thought it would be cool to try and put this stuff together in one 'place' to make it easier for Fordophiles to find this info and look at stuff side-by-side!

 

Hey,

I gots a question. When we were putting the drivetrain together for the Mustang, we ran into some issues you may be able to shed some light on.

It was a later model (roller) block, with a T5. We replaced it with a flat tappet 85 truck engine.

Is there supposed to be a "spacer plate" between the block and the bell? Mine didn't have one, and most I talked to said that it should have.

Then, Dewey (my neighbor) had one that was off a W (you know the one). We thought as we were putting it together to use that, but when it was put up against the back of the block, 2 bolts are WAY off and it doesn't even hit the locating dowels.

This is a great start, especially for guys like me who know nothing about Fords.

Jay

 

Yep, here's your first salvo. This is an old wive's tale anymore - in days of yore, 'twas quite possible to spend twice as much in a SBF than a SBC. After the late-model 5.0 Mustang crowd got done kicking Camaro & Firebird ass so badly for over a decade that GM discontinued them, SBF parts have become cheap & plentiful.

To be fair, you'll spend a shitload more on a Cleveland than a SBC...but you sure won't be behind the SBC at that point!

 

Well, now you know why nobody else has done it before.

 

Okay...back to it here! Once you've got your engine, trans, motor mounts and oil pan sorted out and lowered into your chassis, you might want to start thinking about the exhaust system! For soem of the more popular swaps, there are aftermarket headers available to make things easier. Such is the case for small block Pintos and Mustang IIs, V8 Rangers, big block Fox chassis swaps, and so on. But...the average backyard builder dropping say, a Cleveland into maybe a 41 Ford pickup or something may well be on their own to figure something out! In that case, you may be looking at building your own headers...or maybe using exhaust manifolds.

For the most part, exhaust manifolds will be cheaper, and in some cases easier to fit once you find some with the proper exit point and angle for your particular needs, so I thought I'd throw out a few pictures of some OEM Ford style exhaust manifolds for the various engines we've been discussing, starting with the small block.

My favorite exhaust manifolds to use for the small block in engine swaps where they will fit are what I like to call the "lightweight 60s style" (pictured below as 1969 Mustang 302 manifolds). I call them that because they are VERY light when you go to pick one up. Like some other applications, they exit pointing straight back (or straight FORWARD if flipped side-to-side) on both sides. I tend to find these manifolds on 1966 Fairlanes and Rancheros, as well as other similar cars of the mid-late 60s. I used a pair off of my old 66 Ranchero 289 when I built my old 351W powered 77 Mustang II, and they worked great.

(The 1975ish right side manifold used on many applications through the 70s also pictured below exits the same way, but is heavier, and it's left side counterpart exits towards the rear at about a 45 degree downward angle.)

Of course, as almost everyone knows by now, Ford offered factory header-style manifolds in the late 80s and early 90s on 5.0 engines in Fox chassis Mustangs, as well as on 351W engines in the Lightnin pickup. In some cases, these may offer the budget-minded rodder a sensible balance between performance and cost, as they can normally be picked up fairly cheap these days.

As a side note, small block manifolds can not only be flipped side-to-side if needed, but also inverted if that helps you to get the fit you need, so keep that in mind as you shop for the ones to suit your task at hand.

There are, naturally, some manifolds that are a little more rare and harder to find (or afford!) such as genuine 289 "hi-po" manifolds, but here's some of the more common OEM Ford small block manifolds. Being able to look at the pictures and original applications may help you to get an idea of what to seek out for your particular project, based on what obstacles you have to clear to route the exhaust out of the engine compartment...

 

Just about every Ford I've ever dealt with used the 'spacer plate' between the engine and transmission, and that it is a good point to bring up. In some cases, that plate is different between automatic and manual trans applications, so you sometimes have to watch it when switching stuff around. Even the 2.8 Ford (German) V6 I just tossed out had a spacer plate between the block and bellhousing...it was standard paractice with Ford engines.

 

Now a look at some FE manifolds. The most common type you're going to find on most pickups and some passenger cars are going to be the style shown below as both 1964 T-bird and pickup manifolds.

FE manifolds may also be flipped side-to-side or inverted if need be, and although space is often tight around these big engines, especially in smaller cars...you can likely find something that will work.

Headers are available at reasonable prices for OEM applications such as pickups and late 60s Mustangs and Cougars. The shock towers on the Mustang/Cougar/Torino/Fairlane/etc chassis of the late 60s, combined with the downward cant of the FE exhaust port made for a real tight squeeze when it came to the exhaust, so headers fit tight, as do the manifolds...but that means that they often afford a little more room in applications where the sides of the enine aren't so encroached upon.

I've also pictured the more exotic factory FE free-flowing high performance manifolds, as they are an excellent set to have if you can find them!

 

You know what....... no no forget it I don't have to correct each and every one of you. Let me just say this thread is supposed to be constructive and positive and designed to help a dude that's willing to be a %**@!^# hot rodder, not a copy cat. I get run off threads for waving my banner all the time, even though I right. Even tounge and cheek humor can derail a young guy trying to make something else work. I fart in your general direction!

 

Now we'll look at a few exhaust manifolds for the 429/460 engines. Also pictured in this group is a manifold from a HD truck with the 370 engine, as it will fit a 429/460, and has the central lower exit point that may be just the ticket for some engine swap involving a Lima series motor.

Headers are readily available for OEM and popular swap applications involving 429/460 engines. Try looking at catalog photos (on-line or in book form) for headers to fit 1971 Mustang 429 cars (which will also fit 70-71 429 Torinos and Cyclones), as well as truck headers.

Swap headers are on the market for 429/460 swaps into full sized trucks, and even Ranger pickups and Fox chassis Mustangs, Fairmonts, etc. Sanderson also makes a 'shorty' header for these engines, although they aren't real cheap!

Take a peek at a few big block manifolds here...

 

It gets a little bit more complicated when it comes to exhaust manifolds and headers for the 351C and the 351/400M engines. The reason for that is the exhaust ports. Remember, Clevelands came with either "4V" or "2V" cylinder heads, and had intake and exhaust manifolds designed to match them from the factory. The 351/400M uses 351C 2V style exhaust ports, so manifolds and headers for the 351C 2V engines fit the 351/400M and vice versa.

(When buying headers for vehicles originally equipped with 351C engines, you will find a part number for 4V heads and a part number for 2V heads, and order them accordingly).

Now...CAN you interchange 4V and 2V exhaust manifolds and headers?? Well, yes and no. It is possible to do it, but it is not recommended at all. The ports are sized differently and sealing could be an issue, not to mention possible negative effects on performance.

I've pictured some 351C and 351/400M manifolds below. The Manifolds as listed for 71-73 Mustangs will fit other Ford and Mercury vehicles with Cleveland engines, but I just labeled them by a popular known application.

Manifolds for 351/400M engines can be sourced from all types of mid sized or larger passenger cars as well as light truck and vans from the mid-late 70s, and of course, they can be used on 351C 2V engines if need be.

Domestic 351C manifold applications (both 4V and 2V) are going to be limited to 1970-74 passenger cars (and Ranchero pickups). For this reason, I say that finding manifolds for a custom, one-off Cleveland swap can be a little tricky...but it shouldn't stop you from doing it!!

 

Great info and even though I knew most of it you have put it in print for everyone to see,it does make you use your brain when working with the Ford and Chrysler stuff but it keeps your brain working and you wont end up with alzhimers or how ever its spelled like the GM people will get since thier brains have only been working in a small area and the rest is left to waste. Keep it coming. Jeff

 

Awesome post Fat Hack!
You were correct in stating that the FE was produced at least until 1978. I had a 78 3/4 ton that was originally a 390 truck. I was the second owner, and the guy that sold me the truck also gave me the three shop manuals, which include a section on the FE engine. The truck was a Canadian truck, but still may have been produced in the US. It ran a lot better with a warmed over 428 that I installed shortly after I bought it.
Bob

 

Well, I thought so! Reading your response reminded me of all the 1978 Ford trucks we had at U-haul with FE engines in them when I worked there. True, they were heavy duty pickup cabs on heavy truck frames with the big moving truck box on 'em...but they were 78s!

 

The engine plate on Ford small blocks actually locates the starter correctly in relationship to the flywheel/flexplate-ring gear for proper engagement. Leave it out at your peril - you will be replacing starter bendixes...and eventually ring gears or flexplates.

Don't ask me how I know this.