I've never bought a crate engine or really rebuilt an engine for any of my hot rods. I've always bought a good running wreck or 4 dr for my drive train. That's the way we did it and I'm too old to change now. Take a look at the pictures and tell me what you think. It's a 58 Stude 259. An Ebay shot in the dark. The guy swears even after I bought it that it was a good runner and never smoked. The car was a pure rust bucket and he pulled the engine for a spare for a Stude he had. I believe the rust bucket part as you can see but that seems to be all on the outside. At first I was disappointed with the obvious oil/dirt build up below the breather but if thats all after 40 years? That ain't toooo bad is it? I expected caked on sludge under the valve covers but from my poor side of town I think they look pretty clean for 40 years. So am I a fruit cake to want to just clean it, paint it, transfer my accessories over to this long block and slap her in there?
I would try it as is. You will only be out a day's labor. If you open it up, you are going to want to do it all, and Stude pistons and parts are getting more expensive all the time.
pull the pan look if there is any big movement in the crank and rods, clean out the oil pump and pickup, new gaskets and run it on the ground if possible just a hose in one side of the engine to keep the waterpump wet and working, screw in a oil pressure guage and if good enough i would just run it then, worst case you gotta remove and do it again later
more free advice, tear it all the way down to see exactly what it looks like you'll want to put all new gaskets and seals, oil pump and maybe timing gears init anyway.
I don't know what to make of it; all the engines I've found have been utter greasemonsters that seem to have been dipped in thick black candlewax outside and in. I'd look deeper before dropping it into anything. Or at least dissect the oil filter cartridge and poke around in the water jackets. But that's just my su****ious nature...Stude engines are built rugged.
pull the vally plate off. see if the vally is covered in sludge. my 241 had a bit of sludge in it and i thought that it would be ok. but i got the chance to rebiuld it, so i tore it all down and the guy who owned it before me thought that sence it started and ran, it was ok. and he burned a lobe flat on the cam seeing how it wasnt getting oil. so my opinion is the same as others, tear it down just to inspect it, then put a new gasket set on iit and slap it together if you dont want a full rebuild.
Try and get all the rust out of the cooling p***ages BEFORE you tear it down, this will minimize the possibility of getting that **** inside where you damn sure don't want it. I think that looking at the bearings, cleaning the oil pump, all that sounds like a good idea, acyually, you can do a compression test on the engine stand( or ground), but so many people think if you take it apart you have to have all new pistons, bore job, turn the crank, if nothing was wrong and its not too badly worn you can put bearings and black rings in it and grind the valves and give it a new lease on life. But in the end it's your call.
I got a free 350 to put into my daily about a year and half ago. Got it all in and together, and it was leaking a bit of oil at the RMS. Not too bad. But after about 3000 miles it went from not too bad to going through a CASE of oil for every ONE tank of gas! That equated down to about 40 miles to the quart! Do yourself a favor and go through and at least replace everything that is rubber sealed (valve guide seals especially). Save yourself at least that much future h***le. I'd clean the **** out of it, and then stick it all back together and see how it runs. That might be all it needs.
That sludge is probably from the old non detergent oils very much in use then. Detergent oils will loosen all that crud up and clean it and everything else out and it WILL leak and consume oil after that. I'd fresen it up first. Tom...
Clean it up, replace a few external gaskets, paint it and run it. Looks clean enough under the valvecovers to have had some decent care in the past. Probably a good idea to run non-detergent oil and change it every 1,000 miles like they did 'back in the day'. You really don't have anything to lose but some time, and you're not getting charged anything for that. Or you can throw a few grand at it rebuilding it 'right'. It won't hurt to see if it's still a good one as it sits.
It's a roll of the dice either way might work out or it might cause problems later . The new oil etc. sound advice so far, your call. i have a 56 Power Hawk 259 stick od. Chrome valve covers & 4 bl. i got it home, it had been sitting a long time. Fired it up ran good no smoke. Your rocker look pretty clean for the age, maybe someone did something to it earlier? Biggest problem the Hawk had, the brakes were way out of adjustment, they worked after you pumped them up when you let off nothing. Same thing every time pump em up you got them - let off - gone. I bought a 350 Olds engine the guy ran it in the car, ran good then he took his knife and poked a hole through the frost plug. I wasn't happy till i thought it over, easier to put new ones in now than later. Timing chain? pull the pan & and covers for a look see, liked mentioned More info - 2 guys i know bought new GM crate motors 454's one went i a 33 Ford coupe 3 years in the build, there are less than 50 miles on it. He bought it way back then. He has all kinds of problems with it.It's out of warranty, he got a unlisted number of a Bigshot at GM, first thing he asked how did you get this number after telling him his problem, the guy laughed at him, no help as of yet. You would think they would try to help him? & not be a smart *** about it The other guy has a Big Block in a Stingray with 425 hp, one quart of oil to 50 miles, no miles to speak of on the motor. Same deal no help with smart *** comments to boot. He got a hold of TRW to try to correct the oil ring problem, which were to loose to begin with. Oil rings were installed, 400 miles to a quart of oil. Maybe GM is putting out High Performance 2 cycle motors now! These guys paid good money for these motors, there not happy. What can you say, GM sure made some new customers for someone else! You might be way out ahead with the 259
could loosen up the crud and put it EXACTLY where you DON'T want it .....the oil pickup! i'd say clean her up in and out, new gaskets timing chain and gears and new oil pump......cheap insurance.
One freeze plug had been replaced with an expanding universal fit all plug. one was rusted through and the rest were weak. Boy there was a lot of dirt/rust particles behind the plugs. I got most of it out with picks. I was a little disappointed again. It probably would have run hot. I had to use a a shop vac to **** up all the rust and dirt once I got the valley pan loose. The outside of this engine was rusty and scaly. I took great care to keep it out of the inside. There is some sludge under the puddles of oil where it cant get out. Everything else that looks like it might be sludge is actually casting flash. I'm encouraged again. I think I'll try to flush the water jackets while the heads are still on. With any luck it might wash some of the remaining loose stuff out of the freeze plug holes.
If you've got any way to seal it up, try some CLR or vinegar in the water jackets.... Stude engines are tough - if you can get a drill & old dizzy to try & spin the oil pump just to check if oil is getting everywhere it needs to I'd go based on what that shows. If oils is moving through the rockers & everything, chances are it's good down below too. If so - run it.
Did Studebaker number stamp their rods and caps or has somebody been inside this engine since it left the factory?
Too bad that the J. C. Whitney catalog no longer sells them overhaul pellets. It was claimed, that to just drop the pellets or pills down the oil fill tube. Then the engine would operate like a new one.
Yeah, but the problem is it often cleans all the sludge out and deposits it right in the oil pump pickup. Bad very bad!
Even if you decide to use a different engine, don't let that 259 go to waste. Make sure it has a good home. Those engines are almost impossible to break, and can be VERY fun to drive. That wheelstanding Lark by my signature is powered by a little Stude 259 with Chevy valves, ported heads, homemade 60's style tunnel ram intake, Jeep headers, HEI ignition, and does NOT use a blower like many fast Studes do. Normally aspirated. Just a single Holley carb. Some people say there is no subs***ute for displacement, but I say displacement is a poor subs***ute for guts and good airflow. As long as the car isn't really heavy it can be made to fly. If you want long life and low cost, the 259 has it- My Stude pickup daily workhorse has a 259 that I got for free in 1974 with 109,000 miles on it. Every dozen years or so I give it a valve job (Chevy valves again), and a JC Whitney ring-and-rod-bearing set and it is fresh again. In the 33 years that I have been beating it to death, it has gone thru 3 speedometers (no telling how many times it has "turned over" I am sure it has been several). I haul building supplies, lumber, firewood, and pull rusty projects home on the trailer. It has hauled many, many loads of sandbags during the Mississippi flood of 1993 (volunteer work). Many times it has travelled to Daytona, Denver, Ohio, Chicago, Indy, Nashville, and many other places to get supplies for my projects. I am not afraid to take it anywhere. It has never been towed home except for one time when I snapped an axle (FORD axle). I am also a snow plow driver who goes out in the worst weather at the worst times. The worse it gets, the more I am out in it. That 259 Stude pickup loaded heavy with firewood ballast always starts when needed, and gets me to work in the winters when others have trouble. I still scream it till it rattles, bark the tires when I shift hard, have accidently run it out of oil a few times, and have overheated it badly several times (once every few years when a hose would blow). It still has the standard bore, standard crank, original timing gear, and original pistons. After constantly getting beat to death for over 33 years, that 45 year old engine has very low oil pressure at idle (has had that for many years), has a little piston slap for about 5 years now, and has been fouling plug #3 regularly for about four years. I'll give it two more years and then do another JCWhitney ring and rod-bearing set. Until something breaks, I will keep on revving it till it rattles, keep on hauling the heavy stuff, and keep on banging the gears (Corvette trans). 12 years of regular driving plus 33 years of heavy abuse, and still counting.... ALWAYS use good name-brand oil and avoid the cheap, or house-brand oils. DO NOT test fire the engine with old oil in it. Put fresh oil in it before test firing the engine even once. Preferably prime the oil system. I keep a pressurized can of oil ready for that purpose. Change the oil several times in the first 20-50 minutes of running to keep stuff from scratching and grinding up the bearings, the cam, lifters, and other parts. Then play it by ear after that. Upon first-fire, rev it a bit to splash the cam with oil quickly before any "brown" cam lobes get a chance to chew on the lifters.
Hot damn! The crank and the bearings look good. No sludge to speak of. I think we have a wiener. If all goes well it shouldn't take too long to get the T-5 dialed in. Once it's all cleaned and painted it just a mater of R&R. I'm getting excited. I miss driving this truck. I'm really looking forward to the T-5.
Have heard the Ford T5 will go to the Stude Truck bellhousing w/o much work (chuck T5 bearing retainer in lathe & turn down OD a bit) & need to redrill bellhousing (ream T5 holes to 1/2") and custom pilot bushing...sort out clutch & T/O bearing as well.... Good thread on RacingStudebakers.com a page or two back...
I got lucky and found this early 60s Stude bell housing made for a T-10. It's pretty rare but the T-5 bolts right up after the holes are reamed for bolts. Someone suggested transferring the throw out bearing mounting hardware from the Stude bearing to the Chevrolet bearing. (mine is an S-10 trans) It sure looks simple enough and eliminates the need for a bearing retainer sleeve. I'll take pictures when i do it. I got a pilot bearing from transdapt. I haven't had the engine long enough to sort out all the problems but it sure looks good to me. Some say that the bearing retainer needs to be shortened but they are using a different bell housing. I don't have a spare flywheel and clutch for mock up. I'll have to transfer those parts from my existing engine once I pull it. Right now I can still start it up and move it out of the garage. I'm waiting until the last minute to make it a pushmobile.
I know it won't fit (cause it's a Ford set) but the Hays 95-201 set I have for the T-5 in my Model A is a very nice setup. Easy pedal, and holds, with smooth engagement. Saw where you were speaking of 'sorting out' what clutch and pressure plate to use. Hope it helps.
I'm going through something similar with a Pontiac straight eight right now. I bought a gasket set for and a few wire brushes and cleaning discs and went to town on it. It's almost completely cleaned up now and nearly ready for paint. The guy I bought it from said it ran so I took him at his word. So far, I haven't found anything broken either and the mill does turn over so I feel pretty good about it. Once I finish cleaning it and installing all the new gaskets and seals, she's going in. The photo is the "Before" shot. It's clean as a whistle now.
Tommy - that is a rare bellhousing! Great score! I'd consider finding a V8 Camaro WC unit vs the S10 unit - not just stronger, but much better gear ratios for the torque output of that Stude lump...
Well my LT1 is hooked up to a 39 Ford trans and I haven't blown it yet. I'm not a gear slammer. I enjoy winding it up in the RPM range and then Sunday shift into the next gear and wind 'er up some more. I do like to gear down on deceleration so it's in the right power band when I get back on it but I'm not hard on equipment. No Bonzai starts for me. It's only a 259. I checked the numbers when I got the trans and it has the 3.7 something first gear.
it does look clean..brace it up,run some temporary lines to it and start it up on the floor first..I run a later 259 in my 53 Stude coupe..reamed out the stock two-barrel manifold to fit Edelbrock four and it really worked wonders..it is the most reliable of my cars..including Jetta and Chevy Pickup....
Call me crazy, but I vote for a full rebuild. We all know that Tommy here drives his cars all over the place, and even though everything may look good, once you start running this thing I think you may be in for a couple of unwelcome surprises. Old style rear mains leak after years of sitting, rings get stuck, not to mention that you should get in there with a bore guage and check for cylinder wall wear. If you've got the motor mostly apart as you do, it won't take much more to tear it all down and do it complete. Have it punched .030 over, get the crank cut if needed, new bearings and rings and make sure everything is within tolerance. It will go a long way in your ultimate satisfaction with the motor. I just built a SBC for my pickup truck. The motor came out of a running but wrecked '70 Chevelle. I watched the motor run before it was pulled, good oil pressure, no smoke...looked like a winner. I tore the motor all the way down with the intention of just throwing in some new bearings and rings, and running it. NOPE. Too much ridge on the cylinders caused me to get it bored .030 over. The main journals were worn funny, and needed to get cut .020 under. It had probably spun a rod bearing in it's life, and 1 rod was scored. Now the rod journals needed to get cut, and the rods resized. By the time all was said and done, my machine shop bill was $770. Well worth it though. Tolerances are dead on and the motor will provide years of trouble free service
Yeah that's why I'm not pullin' the heads. I know the chance I'm taking. Ya win some ya lose some and the rest don't count. I used a wrecked 71 Camaro for my first 34 truck 30 years ago. Because of the dumb *** that I bought it from I inadvertently pumped water from the gas tank into all of the cylinders. I did not discover it until 6 months later when I tried to install the distributor. It was locked up solid. It took a couple of weeks of soaking to get it broken loose again. You would not believe the **** that came out of those spark plug holes. I was so close to starting it that I said the hell with it and just kept going. Once I got it running it ran fine. I can't imagine what those cylinders looked like inside. It was still running fine when I sold it. I grew up in an era that if your ride burnt a quart of oil every thousand miles you were doin' good. That's all I'm really hoping for. If the current engine wasn't throwing oil all down the side of the truck I'd still be driving it. I'm used to beaters. I like beaters. Others will brag about how much they have in the motor that was specially prepared by Mr. Famous Racecarguy. I'll just grin and build another hot rod with the difference. Different strokes. If I can get a thousand miles before adding a quart, I'll still drive the ***** across country if I can. I ain't skeeered.
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