Technical Tell me WHY this is going to kill me. UPDATE** Not going to die.

This isn't remotely relevant .

 

No, it's not........... but do you think it was possibly said in jest......???

 

Sure it is.
Satire is always relevant

but I like threads like this. The steering the OP posted looks strange to me. Then someone posts why it’s not optimal. Uses math and stuff.
Then someone that is using similar says it works great.
Kinda like cowl steering threads.
Some of the folks that have done it “wrong” claim it drives great. The smart folks post simulations stating otherwise.
I guess if things work well in actuality but not in simulation are fascinating to me.
Who knows.
I guess there’s still math out there that’s not completely figured out.

 

This is near verbatim to what I've heard a number of times coming from the Guy driving the cars in question. I don't doubt it a bit. It just makes for good bantering at times and proves there is no "ONE Way" for things to work.

 

The problem with making any steering changes is that it often causes some other problem to crop up.....and some of them are not just annoying, but dangerous. Get the Pete and Jakes catalog and it explains the whole set up and what happens when you don't get it all correct..........
The two bold letter notes at the top of the first image are personal notes I added, not P&J info.

 

A couple more........

 

There are some absolutes in life. However, with most things in life if you deviate from the absolute ideal it does not cause serious problems. Some of these steering geometry discussions fall under the latter case. I think it is important to layout the "ideal" geometry, if for no other reason other than it's educational. Just because someone's experience of deviating from the ideal didn't lead to serious problems doesn't mean the math is wrong. As car builders, when we make compromises we should know what those compromises are so we can make judgements accordingly. If what we do doesn't work well, we can at least know where to start to fix the problem.

 

What you say is correct, but what is not mentioned is that as one varies from what is "known" into what is "unknown", the result can be anywhere between satisfactory and dangerous. In many things that we do, variation only causes minor problems or discomfort. With the steering in a vehicle you can have catastropic results. Bumpsteer is not an acceptable trait in any vehicle I operate, and anyone who has ever suffered "death wobble " while driving, never wants to repeat it. If someone is armed with the proper information to do something correctly (steering ), I see no reason not to pursue that goal. The two most important systems on a vehicle are the brakes and the steering, and builders need to do their best to get both of them correct. How you get there may vary, but the end result needs to right, not "still functions"..........at least in my opinion.

 

Without seeing what he's got it's impossible to say what clearances he has. And things like the transverse spring could interfere, but it also depends on what steering box he has, and where the steering input shaft is located. If the box and input shaft are above the frame rails, then there's no reason the steering done with a DD shaft would interfere with the transverse spring below. And steering U joints can easily work around a lot of interferences. My '39 had to miss motor mounts, etc. and between a couple joints and a heim support on the DD shaft it works fine, and misses everything.
But if my suggestions don't work for the OP's car he's free to ignore them. Wont bother me a bit.

 

Nice detailing doesn't overcome poor geometry!

 

Again with the Ackerman? Pete and Jake didn't invent Ackerman. I know, that's blasphemy, but it's the truth. Erasmus Darwin came up with the idea in 1758 when his horse drawn carriage tipped over and he got hurt. More blasphemy, Rudolph Ackerman did not come up with the geometry that defines Ackerman steering. He was only the agent for the guy who really figured it out and, for some reason, Rudy took out a patent on it in 1818 for horse drawn carriages and it was named after him. I guess we can be glad that the inventor, Georg Lankensperger, didn't get the patent in his name. Ackerman is hard enough to deal with.

 

Zero bumpsteer is an impossibility, especially with a beam axle.
We all have bumpsteer in our cars. Keeping it minimal is the key.

That sounds like a more fun world to me.
"Do you have your Lankensperger set up correctly?"
I would try to say that every day......

 

Sorry , I missed the memo , with half the crap being said on this place ,its really hard to tell!

 

The two smiley faces should be a big clue.......

 

If you guys can wait until this weekend, I will have moved the box and built a new header and all will be right with the world.

Lord knows, I wouldn't want a messed up Georg Lankensperger angle....

-Abone.

 

Flamedabone , has the car ever been drove by you with box in currant location ? If so report back after box relocation in how it drives & handles,
"""comparison""

 

yes PLEASE--tell us the comparison

 

Here is the car in its current condition. About 3/4 of the way mocked up, about another year before it will see daylight.



-Abone.

 

From what I can see from here there's no problem with the steering, continue on. I like it!

 

Splitting hairs to make a point? All steering systems I'm aware of have compromises but are engineered for safe driving. Millions of trucks have been manufactured with straight axles and driven billions of miles, and I don't recall them having bumpsteer issues when properly designed and maintained. You can split hairs and say that the nature of the design will incorporate some unnoticeble amount of bumpsteer, but for all intents and purposes a properly executed setup will not have bumpsteer.

The point simply is that if someone knows how to assemble a system so that it functions in the best possible manner, to assemble a system that is subpar and say its "good enuff" is foolish. You don't always get a second chance when your steering does malfunction.

 

Isn't that what I said...???
I'm not your man today. Try someone else to argue with...

 

No.

Sorry, but I didn't pick you, you picked me in post #72. Didn't realize I was not allowed to quantify that when bumpsteer is so insignificant that people aren't even aware of it, most people would consider that as not having bumpsteer. But I stand corrected, there technically is bumpsteer ...........

 

Dagdum Ackerman

Never worried about it

it’s real. I might even think about it one day

I just cruise.

 

You did a good job training him, guess he listened to his masters voice (of experience)



Oh well, nuff said.........got better things to do.

 

Here is this mornings update and the good news is while I might die soon, it won't be from my steering rod angle.

Here is the old setup. Box behind header tube. Worked great except for the aforementioned steering angle.



Moving the box wasn't a big deal, but I JUST built that damn header and exhaust and all of that would have to move.



I was able to gut the center of the header and just make a new center tube and merge pieces.



New steering angle is still not perfect, but it is closeafuckingnuff.



The lesson is most of the time, things aren't near as difficult as you thought they might be.


Now, you guys can go back to arguing amongst yourselves. Carry on...

-Abone.

 

"New steering angle is still not perfect, but it is closeafuckingnuff."

Yes it is...and perfect is overrated. Nice work, by the way.

 

Well, I thought thats what I did when I posted the images about what ,why,and how to set up a front end.

So why did you build it on such an angle and then build headers around the steering box if you already knew it was wrong?

It was pretty well explained in the attachment about using a Vega type cross steering.

Again, you should have read the attachment.....

Yes, correcting that angle is a step in the right direction. Are you sure it will correct all your possible problems?

So, now that you have completed the change, and without ever test driving the vehicle, you feel absolutely sure that you won't have any problems..........did I get that right?

If you read the things you posted on this thread, you asked for help............yet when someone goes out of their way to provide you with information, you don't show any appreciation and choose to toss out criticism toward those that tried to help..Even though there was some disagreement between us, the information provided should have helped you if you had taken the time to actually read and understand. I've posted that stuff before and many people have liked and benefited from it. Now one last time before I move on............you might gain a better understanding of whats going to help you if you read the information about Vega cross steering, as it applies to all cross steering set ups when using a Ford beam axle and a leaf spring in our early hot rods. You might want to pay particularly close attention to the explanation of spring/chassis movement and the use of a panhard bar............but then again, if closef***ingnuff is how you build everything........then best of luck to you......

 

That looks better, where's your Panhard bar? Unless you're using a dead perch on the left side, you HAVE to have a Panhard bar on that axle.

 

Maybe you should have a look at the stuff @flamedabone builds.