Technical Tell me WHY this is going to kill me. UPDATE** Not going to die.

I've got about the same angle on my 29 with no panhard bar but a little tight angle on the shackles and 30000 miles and no problems

 

Right on! I'd say you're as good as Gold now "Except", I'd dismantle the steering box and have the housing Ceramic coated Black to ward off the heat from the header. That will keep from cooking the gear lube in the box.

 

Thanks for the Pete and Jakes attachment, I have a paper copy in my shop and keep it in the back of my mind when I build my cars. The new steering angle is fine, the car will have a panhard bar and all is right with the world. Yes, it sucked to build a new header, but it wasn't that big of a deal. It's all just hot rod stuff, sometimes you get to do it twice.

I think it is also important to remember that this is the internet, sometimes things get lost in the digitization and what someone says isn't always represented correctly on the page. So, my advice is relax a little bit, it's all just old cars, everything will be fine.

-Abone.

 

In my own experiences I drove & worked on a cross steer straight axle ,
Box was mounted further back then usual then most I've done or seen , I moved the box forward with the pitman arm & cross rod @ about 2 inches wheels straight , box neutral 50/50 position From tie rod tube @ ride height, pitman on same plain of tie rod tube ,,
Was Very noticeable improvement on driving quality and steering , then box further back
Also had to use tight radius fabrication donuts to relocate exhaust to free flow

 

I’m enjoying your build either way, a Cadded Coupe can’t go wrong,,
An older mate of mine enlightened me to the word “Compromise”, everyday it appears
to be pertinent.
Here you’ve done well on both counts.
Opinions are just that, anyone can read and have them, some just want to push them on ya!

 

Isn't this where we put the bunny with the pancake?

 

I notice that you didn't attempt to provide any technical information or assistance to the OP on this thread, just your opinion about those who do........

If you have any technical knowledge contrary to what I posted that shows it as being incorrect, now would be a good time to post it and expose what I posted as not being factually correct. I would be glad to hear your opinion What I posted was factual information provided by people who make their living building hot rods and are well recognized in the industry...........not my opinion. The only opinion I presented was that I thought this was good information to follow......and that I felt anyone building a steering system should strive to "get it right". I stand by those two opinions.

Also, the OP mentioned in his reply that he actually has this same information already posted on his shop wall as a reference for what he does. Guess maybe his opinion about the information I posted is somewhat similar to mine.

There is a difference (IMHO) between doing something incorrectly when you don't know you are doing it incorrectly, and doing it incorrectly when you know you are doing it incorrectly. I provided information, you only provided your opinion...............maybe I helped someone......who did you help?

 

ek is not wrong.

But the bunny-pic posted has a freebie-extra, in that some wanted a bunny pic with *a* pancake on its' head. That bunny is rockin' *two* pancakes! .

Marcus...

 

Ya gotta Love this place!

 

My take on this is that the OP knew stuff, did stuff, looked down and said, 'Oh crap.", then posted about it, hoping against hope, that the consensus would be, "Hell yah, you can get away with that."

 

I believe this is called a hypothesis; I know it's a big word, but I spelled it correctly. About as helpful as

 

That could be made to work with reshaping the steering arm out towards the wheel and clocking the pitman arm outboard a bit. Trying to approach the 90 degree desirable angles as mentioned before. Not ideal but a little detail work could have made it better. Good that you have relocated the box, though, that's a better way to make it better!

 

Wouldn't posting a picture of Oolong be the same thing as admitting you are "clueless" ?

• "Pancake Bunny is a nickname given to Oolong, a Japanese rabbit who was trained by his owner Hironori Akutagawa to balance objects on his head. Following its initial rise to internet fame in Japan through Akutagawa's daily photo blog, pictures of Oolong eventually spread across the English-speaking web with the dismissive caption “I have no idea what you’re talking about, so here’s a bunny with a pancake on its head.”

Don't know how that stuff helps anyone building a hot rod.....which is what I thought we were all here for.

 

As long as we're offering opinions:
I think that is a single pancake on the bunny's head. What appears to be the second one is just an optical illusion. It is really just a lip that could be removed with flap disc.

 

To try and respond in a mature manner here...

There are people that make their living building hot rods that are NOT good sources. That being said, Pete and Jakes are certainly an authority that is respected and should be considered- your intention was good. And several may benefit from it.

Striving to "get it right" is subjective. And I think some of the response is typical. There is no one way. There are fast-ways, easy-ways, clean ways, period-correct ways, completely wrong ways, etc... Some are better than others. Some are dangerous. Some suck. Some are awesome. Some are ugly as sin and concessions are okay in a lot of cases.

Some us have been around long enough to know that the OP, while asking for opinions, phrased it in a funny way and has built several VERY well put together builds. Even experienced builders will ask questions about what they can "get-away" with. And that's okay.

You're kinda weirdly focusing a little pointedly and weirdly on the opinions of those around here that do or did in fact build these cars for a living, which is why we're in a pancake fest right now. And I dunno man just came off kinda harsh I guess.

The first way they had this setup was absolutely fine, and they made a decision based off response to change it up which is also totally fine.

That was a good article to post, and I hope people read and understand it. But it's not the end all authority. It's good knowledge to go from.

Why am I even doing this? Have I not learned 20 years on the HAMB

 

I think that is actually two pancakes, used to illustrate the close as possible parallel alignment. Might be off just a hare but not only good but good enough.

 

IHOP Special

 

Hare?

(I took a paws before I got that.)

 

Believe it or not most of us have a sense of humor. I'm betting you're a laugh riot at a party

 

This topic had me sure from the start that he was gonna die if he didn’t move the box. Then he moved the box, and all was bright in the world again. But then Mart made me think again about other possibilities.



Henry Ford didn’t have a perfect 90 from his side steer box to the spindle. So he rotated the arm of the spindle slightly forward until he did have a 90 from the drag link to the spindle. Mart thinks Flamed could have done the same thing, and now I think he is right.

Key to the whole concept is that the halfway point of the arm’s travel is 90 degrees to the drag link. Works for both side steer and cross steer.

 

I think it's a pancake with lip's...

 

Look up " insufferable bore"

 

“I notice that you didn't attempt to provide any technical information or assistance to the OP on this thread, just your opinion about those who do........”

Nah, just one of them! We all have an opinion,, you probably only need to use it once though or it becomes like sign blind, to many and you don’t see them.


My point was, everything is a compromise in life, even life itself.
Sometimes you can get it perfect, other times you don’t, or can’t.
My “Technical knowledge” is, life experience tells me, if the pitman arm is 90 degrees to the drag link, while at the centre stroke of the steering box travel as a starting point, the drag link and tie rod should be parallel in both planes ,with everything mounted in the chassis then it would be behaving pretty good. The “closest” the op could get to that is the compromise!

I’m certain someone will find fault with this, another one of life’s experiences.
In my opinion.

Happy to be a tadpole in this big pond we’re swimming in, learning as I go.
Sometimes a chill pill thrown into it wouldn’t hurt.

 

I remember when I was a kid, and there was a bully at the local amusement park who found someone he could pick on. The more the other boy tried to move on, the bolder the bully got. Finally they neared the exit and the bully put on one last push to embarrass the boy further.........
The boy had had enough and came back at the bully, cleaning his clock and mopping up the floor with him. The bully suddenly had nothing else to say and exited the scene quite ungracefully.

A few years later when I was a teen, another guy tried to bully me and spread the word that he was looking for me. One of the local instigators went to get him and tell him I was at a small automotive shop, waiting for him. He came over and the fight ensued. Before long I had him pinned to the ground and was sitting on top of him. He threatened to use his knife on me if I hit him anymore. I told him if he thought he could get his knife out, go ahead and try it.
He didn't, and I got up and let him go.

A couple days later he came walking down the street while me and another guy were sitting on some steps and talking to some girls. The other guy hollered at him that I was over here if he wanted another chance at me. He kept walking.

Todays bullies are the ones that use words and keep a safe distance. They try to insult people because they have learned that they usually can get away with it. Most wouldn't dare to say those same things at a party or some other face to face encounter. One thing that I learned in life was to always give respect to someone when its due, but not to concern myself with those who simply tag along and try to put other people down, the instigators... because they have nothing really worthwhile to say. Kinda like when we were kids and the bystanders always tried to egg things on and start a fight for other people to finish.

As Dreddybear wisely said above:

and "That was a good article to post, and I hope people read and understand it. But it's not the end all authority. It's good knowledge to go from."

He got both comments "exactly right" and I agree with him.

Perhaps you could learn something from him, as he wrote a well thought out response.....one that showed some wisdom, and the kind of response that can create usable dialogue. I agree with what he said. As for what each of you had to say, it helped no one..........

 

Many things do require compromise, and steering coupled with moveable suspension components is a good example.
Since there are many many variations in the relationships established when you combine both steering and suspension, the results are going to vary. I never mentioned "perfection", only "getting it right".

To me , my definition of getting it "right" basically means that when completely assembled the components will work in a harmonious manner, or at least in a manner that any imperfect flaws are minute enough as to go unnoticed while driving. Probably no suspension works "perfectly", especially in all conditions. Some people have front suspensions that work just fine (right) even though they don't employ a panhard bar. Others, built in a similar manner don't work safely or "right". Minor variations in locations, clearances, weight,tire selection, actual caster, alignment, tire centerline, etc may make a virtually identically assembled system have problems. There is no "only one way" thats right..........but each builder will have a better chance to get his system "right" if he understands what the principles are that he is trying to work with. While all steering systems may exhibit some unwanted trait, if that trait is minimalized to the point that it creates no problem and is virtually unnoticeable........then I consider that "right".........not "perfect" but "right". If the particular trait does create a problem with normal control when driving....ie: it imparts changes in controllability while driving...I consider that unacceptable in any car that I own. There are people out there today driving these cars with excessive bumpsteer as well as shimmy and bottoming out and on and on. Most appreciate having information on what has been proven to work well. Others just detract or deride ........'shoot the messenger".
In this particular thread, many have focused on the OP moving his steering box location (which I think was a good thing) but ignored the rest of the interactions between the springs and shackles and shocks etc which also have to be considered. Thats why I posted the P&J stuff, to help people see and understand before they actually do anything.

You don't have to read what I post if you don't like it, but sometimes interaction does help others besides yourself. So everyone has the option to pick the ignore button if they find my posts to be uninformative or boring. But like I learned as a kid, I won't be bullied. I will laugh at funny posts, but personal insinuations are seldom meant to invoke laughter. So I stand by my posts and my opinions, and I think I did it without resorting to any personal insults.

 

.........Oh, come on......that's funny.

 

Trying to work with some of you guys is about the same cirumstance as telling your wife the truth when she asks you "Do these pants make me look fat"...........the truth isn't what she wants to hear.

Now thats funny...........

Anybody got any technical information they want to post about how they made their steering and suspension work, might be a nice change from all the Facebook stuff.

So along that line, did any of you account for the change in your caster if you built your car with a lower front end? Anybody know if using a dropped axle changes the dynamics of wheel position (front to rear), or any other dynamic? Anybody know if there is an optimal length/location if a panhard is used? Or can explain what changes as the suspension moves up and down or even sideways as it travels through an arc. Lots of things that could be discussed here that might have some actual value to someone. Did you relocate the front axle to make the tires look centered under the fender? Why not give the personal stuff a rest and address the actual issues encountered when someone is building a car?

 

Good point Mort. Along that line, one thing I have not seen mentioned is the position of the drag link vertically. Should it be the same height from end to end ? Would suspension movement change its effective length and move the wheels? Isn't that similar to the expanation of Mustang steering in the P&J info, only turned sideways? I'm not saying it does or doesn't.........just wondering.

The reason I asked this question, is if its a factor worth considering, then changing the pitman orientation might also include reshaping the arm vertically as well.