History the 427 Mystery, mystery

http://www.hotrod.com/features/rare-1962-chevy-mystery-motor-mark-ii-revealed/

http://www.hotrod.com/features/1509...r-first-raced-it-still-has-secrets-to-reveal/

 

I see Mgtstumpy has listed many articles that one can read on the 427 motors. Here is a picture of GM's 427 Mark II Mystery Motor they display at one of their Heritage Collection buildings. Second pic is Hank Gather's Z11 from Michigan (Ole Mr Wilson/Ronnie Sox 63 Impala). This is one of the best sounding cars in my opinion. The camshaft really makes some great noise. Then the sale pic is something I lifted off the HAMB I believe-just thought it was cool.

 

The Mystery Motor 427 was only used in NASCAR racing in 1963 and are scarcer then the Z-11. Junior Johnson had the most success with the Mystery Motor but 1960 NASCAR Champion Rex White was the first to test one at the GM Proving Grounds. He was still in awe when telling me about a year ago how much more power it had on the straightaway compared to the 409 engine he used before it.

 

I believe the Mystery Motor did use the 409 water pump, but I may be wrong.

Gary

 

The definitive answer can be found in one of the "Smokey" trilogy books. My recollection without finding the book was something like this: Smokey was summoned to GM to look at a new engine design. He, of course, didn't want to do it because all GM engineers were idiots and anything that came out of there would be junk. Regardless, he went and sat in a meeting with 12 or so room temperature IQ engineers and one young guy that he'd never met. Well they parade these pieces in front of Smokey and he was blown away! Absolutely a fabulous race engine revolutionary. So Smokey leaves and when the mystery engine was introduced (limited quantities to be sure) as the 427 MKII or whatever turns out to be a warmed over 396/400/427. Not the killer piece he was shown. When he asked WTF was told killer design was too expensive so they went this way! This is from memory and I stand to be corrected...at least until I can quote chapter and verse.

 

Your correct. The one that showed up at Daytona was not a 409 block. it was a completely new design. Ive got a 63 magazine someplace that told the story.

 

It did not. The "Mystery Motor" uses its own unique water pump that is more similar in shape to that used on the SBC/BBC. See photos posted previously.

 

Gene: I have the complete book of Smokey's memoirs close by (which I re-read quite regularly - one of the best automotive books I have ever read!). The young engineer was Dick Keineth who, according to Smokey, was under Zora Duntov and the Mystery engine, as Smokey saw it, was Keineth's brainchild. In the section about Ed Cole, Smokey mentions that "He (Cole) let the bean counters wreck the big block 427 engine...". Regards, Dave.

 

Found these two on the net somewhere both described as a Z-11

 

So in summary what I have gathered so far, correct me if I am wrong.
Mark I Big Block
348, 409, Z-11 427
MII Big Block
Mystery Motor 427
MIII Big Block
?
MIV Big Block
396/402, 427, 454.

 

I've never heard of a Mark III, I think they skipped over it...but yeah, that's it.

 

Link To Hot Rod - Smokey Yunick's Mystery 427:

http://www.hotrod.com/news/world-ex...963-427-mystery-motor-built-by-smokey-yunick/

 

AV8 Dave said - "The young engineer was Dick Keineth who, according to Smokey, was under Zora Duntov and the Mystery engine, as Smokey saw it, was Keineth's brainchild. "

Reportedly Keinath was interviewed in the out of print book "Fast Chevys".
http://hotrodenginetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Fast-Chevys-cover.jpg
It was reviewed here-
http://hotrodenginetech.com/fast-chevys/

The review has this to say about the mystery engine.
" Considering the Mark II big block again briefly, Keinath explains that the only thing even closely resembling the W-motor design was the crankshaft. The Mystery engine began as a 409ci engine based on the all new Mark II cylinder block and it utilized a 409 crankshaft and bearings; nothing else. Keinath states that it had a 4-5/16-inch bore (4.3125) and a 3.500-inch stroke which yielded 409ci. It was a racing engine designed to ultimately replace the 409 and the displacement was retained to capitalize on the 409’s notoriety. Much of the testing and development was done with 409 cubic inches, but in October of ‘62 negotiations with NASCAR resulted in permission to take it to 427 cubic inches to gain parity with Ford and Chrysler. This development package became the Mark IIS (for stroked) New cranks were designed and that eliminated the 409 crank from the package. Keinath further remarks that the Mark II and later Mark IV series engine are externally almost identical, but that nothing interchanges primarily because of revised port locations; head bolt locations and so on. "

 

Were the tall deck 366? and 427's a Mark IV?

 

Yes, the tall deck 366 and 427 engines are Mark IV.

Mark III --> From Hot Rod Magazine - The Mark III was a 1963 design study similar to the Mark II, but featuring a bigger bore center. None were actually produced, though, since it required too much tooling money at the Tonawanda engine plant to change bore centers.

 

Well this thread has become like an elephant, too much to eat all at once. I'll be reading and re-reading this for a while. thanks fellas.

On a side note and just to add a little levity to this thread, I have now edited the word east to say eat twice. I am now reading though this thread for the forth time and have not yet begun to read the links.

As for the minor argument no one has said anything bad about anyone's sister and a good argument can promote thought, uh sometimes.

Carry on.

 

Its really simple when boiled down the 427 mystery engine. was not a 409 based engine. It didn't use a single part from a 409.

 

The "W" motors are not "Mark I". There is no Mark I or Mark III.

 

Yes, all rat motors except for the mystery motor are known as Mark IV.

 

They shared the same bore and stroke, oiling system, pistons, bearings, so there is a bit of '09 in there.

 

Too much to east Raided the medicine cabinet again??

 

No there was a modified 409 that displaced 427 CU in. A 409 or 427 Z11 W engine has is combustion chamber in the block. the underside of the cyl head is flat. The 427 mystery engine had different pistons. it was a big block like a 396. As much difference between it and a 409 as the was between a 283 and a 348.

 

Bore centers, cam bearing diameter, rod journal diameter, rod length, canted valves, all the same. both engines actually use the same cam bearings. You have to look a little deeper than the shape of the valve covers ...

 

Ditto on what Falcon George said.

 

Yes and the low horse 409 and 220 horse 283 both used the same Rochester 4GC carb. and the same 3/8 intake manifold bolts. And they can use the same bellhousing flywheel ect. A small block distributer will fit a big block. The fact is the mystery engine that actually showed up at Daytona was not a reworked or re engineered 409. It was a entirely new design. Not a single one of the cast engine parts would fit any W engine.

 

LOL Not today actually, maybe not close enough to the smart pills.

its OK I spelled add with one D yesterday and no one even noticed.

 

Total nonsense. The last time I checked 283s are on 4.4" bore centers, 348's 409's, the "mystery motor" and the Mark IV are all on the same 4.84 bore centers. 283s have 2" rod journals and 5.7" long rods, 348's 409's, the "mystery motor" and the Mark IV all have 2.2" journals and 6.135 long rods, 348s share the same cam journal sizes with 409's, the "mystery motor" and the Mark IV, and in FACT, Bernie Agaman used 348 cranks in short stroke Mark IV Pro Stock motors in the late seventies. Try putting a 283 crank in a Mark IV.

No the heads dont swap, and the top of the deck on the W motors is tilted. But its clear to anyone with even the remotest clue about engine design that the Mystery motor and the Mark IV that followed are a direct evolution from the W motors.

 

As much as some people want to believe that the 427 mystery engine that actually showed up a Daytona was a reengineered 409 that wasn't the fact. Go ahead think and believe whatever you want. You the one who is giving it free rent in your head.

 

If you disagree, that's fine but no need to get personal. Yes, the Mark II was a all new motor but the engineers took what they learned from the '09 and applied it to the Mark II. The same applies to the new LS motors. They took what they knew about the old mouse motor and created a whole new small block that doesn't look anything like the old one.

 

Your correct. Im done. When you argue with idiots they quickly bring you down to there level. LOL