Hot Rods The 56 buick wagon wont start again?

Rfraze ok I will check it out Monday since I will have the gradaughter here for the week end, so you are saying trace that yellow wire back and see if I can find voltage some where in it and if I do run it to the coil ? Right.? Heres the voltage while cranking at the coil.Thanks Bruce.

 

Bruce, check those wires that go to the starter ****on for 12 volts while cranking only.

 

Bruce, check those wires that go to the starter ****on for 12 volts while cranking only.

While cranking an engine there are few, if any, batteries that will deliver the full 12 volts. Typically, due to the huge current draw, the battery voltage drops to between 9 to 10 volts. He can look forever and not find 12 volts anywhere in the car while cranking. It is why the coils are designed to provide proper spark at 9V and a resistor is inserted in the circuit after the car starts to bring the voltage down to 9v.

 

Uh huh.
What's the point of the exercise here?
Lots to read I know but he's missing the resistor byp*** while cranking only.

 

Lots to read I know but he's missing the resistor byp*** while cranking only.

The number on the meter above is a good cranking voltage. Somewhere back he showed 12 something going to the resistor with the key in run position.

Bruce, check those wires that go to the starter ****on for 12 volts while cranking only.

The point is, this is NEVER going to happen. The reduced battery voltage while cranking is EVERYWHERE in the car.

 

O.K.31Vicky I will do that. I will let you know Monday. Thanks. Bruce.

 

And thanks to you too Old Buzzard.Bruce.

 

Does anyone else agree with this?
There will be a major drop in voltage, but we have had to check one thing at a time here and we finally got battery voltage (was hoping for a reading with everything off, but got while running, I think), voltage going in to resistor, out to coil, and reading at coil during cranking. It has been quite a process to get those readings.
If the jumper wire from solenoid to coil+ was connected and working during cranking, wouldn't the voltage at coil+ be higher than reading out of resistor?

 

The test proves what you say here and have said before. We know it. How do we get Bruce to realize this, find the wire, and fix it?

 

Maybe oldbuzzard knows how to word it and explain it better

 

NO
1. I am asking YOU to find the wire that comes from the starter solenoid up to the top of the engine that only has voltage during cranking.
2. Remove and tape all wires at coil+ except the one coming from the ballast resistor.
3. Add the wire you found from the solenoid to coil+.
4. Test coil+ during cranking
5. Test coil+ running. I think the reading will be higher during cranking.

 

PLEASE

buzzard - An earlier reading showed battery voltage to be 11.95. Don't you agree that is too low and battery should be charged? The resistor to coil voltage at that time was 7. something, which seemed too low. We still had not gotten a coil+ during cranking reading to know if there was a jumper wire hooked up. All of a sudden we see battery voltage of 13+ and 9 at coil. I can only ***ume these tests were while running. There is no functioning ballast jumper yet.

 

Must find all the wire in the photo I've posted.
Idk if a 56 buick has the starting byp*** wire to coil off the staring solenoid or off the starter ****on or if the starter ****on is even factory.

There's some mental block that occurs and complicates things by talk of attaching the coil to the starter and the cranking only condition. It seems to throw some guys off track because the ignition is different than the starter.

 

Bruce, look at your starter selenoid. Does it have one large battery cable and two small terminals? If it does one engages the solenoid and the other goes to your coil to supply 12 volts while cranking only. Gary

 

The only thing I have said is that 12 V will not be seen anywhere because when the starter is engaged the battery is pulled to a lower voltage, about 9 v, and when that happens, since ALL power in the car is coming from the battery, you will read that lower voltage EVERYWHERE on every wire in the car.

Please don't try and make anything else out of it.

rfraze said:
Jumper sends more voltage from solenoid to coil during cranking to make firing easier. Your system is NOT getting that extra boost, yet. ---Post #120

:If the jumper wire from solenoid to coil+ was connected and working during cranking, wouldn't the voltage at coil+ be higher than reading out of resistor?

NO. Battery voltage is pulled down to about the same as the resistor provides because of starter load.

:All of a sudden we see battery voltage of 13+ and 9 at coil. I can only ***ume these tests were while running. There is no functioning ballast jumper yet.

I don't know what you mean by..functioning ballast jumper. The ignition switch should switch from the wire to the solenoid & wire to the resistor. He told me he changed the resistor.

****
OB: You will not see any extra boost on a meter because the battery voltage is pulled down while cranking no matter where the wire comes from.
*******
If it does one engages the solenoid and the other goes to your coil to supply 12 volts while cranking only. Gary
>There will never be 12v while cranking.

The wire supplied battery voltage.
Again, 31Vicky said: Bruce, check those wires that go to the starter ****on for 12 volts while cranking only.

OB:As already stated, The point is, this is NEVER going to happen. The reduced battery voltage while cranking is EVERYWHERE in the car. You all have seen it, lights dim, fans slow down due to heavy starter drain on the battery.

You will never see full battery voltage anywhere while the starter is engaged. The solenoid or switch, whichever is used, will provide the coil with battery voltage, whatever that may be, until it starts & then with the key in run position a wire is run to the resistor to drop the voltage to ~9v for the coil. Coils are made for 9 v which is about cranking voltage of a good battery.

I have not taken any exception to anything on this thread except the idea that anybody is going to see 12v while cranking the engine. The rest of you were handling the situation just fine.

What would be the point of having the solenoid wire energized all the time and connected to coil+ while having a lower voltage wire connected the same place from the resistor. The solenoid wire is energized only while the engine is cranking.

 

Buzzard - The ballast byp***(thanks 31vicky) (or jumper as I have been calling it) is a third wire on the solenoid (or somewhere in the system). It is only hot when the solenoid is activated by the wire from START ****on or switch for the sole purpose of providing full battery voltage to coil+ ONLY during cranking. Coil+ voltage is supplied from ballast resistor while key is on IGN and voltage only increases during cranking (when wire is connected). We are just about to prove this when Bruce finds the byp*** wire.

(I looked back thru the other 3 threads but could not find the picture of starter and the 3 wires attached to it: Battery cable, what looked like trigger wire, and a third (byp***?)wire
Like you, we are not there, BUT, we have been working on this tiny area of troubleshooting since early December and are only now nearing conclusion of tests on this ONE system.
All we have been doing is trying (one step at a time) to get readings at certain places to see if wires are hooked up, resistors are resisting, etc. They all seem to be EXCEPT the ballast byp*** wire to coil+, which we are hoping Bruce will find and hook up.

I disagree about the level of voltage drop in a properly charged system, but get what you are saying. That test was only to determine from afar if a ballast byp*** wire was adding voltage at coil+ during cranking. I believe it should.

 

Bruce: Sorry to hear about your 56 not running right. I have a couple of things to check:
1) There is a small copper pigtail that is used to ground the points plate (in the distributor). Is that intermittent?
2) I saw a post where you said that a yellow wire was hanging from under the generator. Looking at that picture it looks as if there is no wire going to the generator field terminal (one with capacitor attached to it). If that wire was not connected then you would not be charging the battery. I would look and see where that yellow wire goes to on other end. If it goes to the voltage regulator (F terminal) then that yellow is your generator field wire. If not, then look on the wiring diagram.

Years ago, a friend of mine came over and asked why his engine was running poorly. Well I moved the distributor shaft around and saw filings similar to what you have. Perhaps you should take the distributor out and either replace or rebuild it.

Good Luck

 

That resistor byp*** wire is very different than any other wire in the entire electrical system. When the solenoid engages it is connected directly to the battery cable via the solenoid's internal contacts and goes directly to the coil. No other wire does this. No other wire is connected in such a fashion. No other wire is as important to carry full battery voltage to the coil at the critical time of stating.

 

the ignition start or hot shot lead we call it for full 12v power comes from the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid ( yours should have it , I checked my books and parts manual ) to the positive terminal on the coil it helps fire the motor quicker with a super hot spark . if this lead is missing , put one in and it will give the most voltage to the coil on fire up as the power source is the heavy duty lead from the battery ( thru the solenoid contact plate ) and you will not have any excessive voltage drop from going thru the wiring harness , this lead only supplies power when you crank it , once the key /****on is released the power goes thru the key circuit and ballast resistor and powers it normally .

also charge the battery up to full voltage ( for 2-3 hours on low charge or 13.8 volts ) before taking any measurements or testing and recharge it if you crank the motor more than 5 times as it will draw the reserve voltage down . and to test the proper voltage on a battery the residual "ghost" charge must be removed , we do this by turning the lights on for a few seconds ( pull the switch on and off once will do it ) , then take the voltage readings .


thanks Vick for catching my brain Fart . ( open a window and let it air out a few minutes )

 

OK.Rfraze, let me try and trace that wire from the starter solenoid and see if I can find it.If not I will run a wire from the starter solenoid to the + side of the coil and see what happens.Bruce.

 

Stimpy, like I said let me try and see if I can find that wire and if not install one and see what happens.Bruce.

 

31 Vicky , Got ya.Bruce.

 

d2 Willys.Where that yellow wire was cut I see some one ran one from the voltage regulater to the gen.The gadge says shes charging.I am I the works for getting a replacement dist.Bruce.

 

I just want to thank all of you for hanging in there with me and helping me on this electrail problem . Like I said I am not good with wires. Most people would of given up on me by now . I will keep you all posted on what I find, and THANKS AGAIN.Bruce.

 

Another cook for your soup from your picture you have 2 wires to the nondistributor side of the coil to check remove them from the coil. One wire should have voltage with the key on the other one none. Now check the one that did not have voltage while the engine is cranking there should be voltage then.

 

I remember a pic of the starter with the cable and 2 wires. It is up to you to figure out what color and where they go. One should go to START (switch or ****on) or a relay you replaced on the fender, the other back up to the top of engine somewhere to finally end up at coil+. Don't hesitate to carefully slice tape open so you can follow wires.

Sunbeam is correct above. Until you trace, test, and connect the byp*** wire from the solenoid, the only wire connected to coil+ should be from output connector on ballast resistor.

 

Will do sun beam..It will be Monday till I get back down to the shop.Bruce

 

OK.Will do and let you know.Bruce.